Voice Over (00:02):

Welcome to AEC Marketing for Principals brought to you by Smartegies, where we help design and construction firms navigate sales and leverage marketing to win more projects. Here are your hosts, Katie Cash and Judy Sparks.

Katie Cash (00:17):

Hi everyone. And welcome to today’s episode of the AEC Marketing for Principals podcast. This is Katie Cash, your host. And today I’m joined by my partner in strategy, Ms. Judy Sparks and Judy and I are talking to a dear friend and fellow professional, Mr. Joe Mynhier. He is a book author with his new book, fresh off the presses, The Introverted Hunter: An Introvert’s Field Guide to Become Super at Sales! Joe, I am so excited to have you on today’s show where we can talk about how those of us that prefer, you know, our own personal space in our reflective thinking time can really be great at sales and Excel and the professional service world. So thank you for spending time with us today and welcome to the show.

Joe Mynhier (01:03):

Well, thank you for having me. It’s my pleasure.

Katie Cash (01:06):

So, you know, let’s just dive right into it. For the listeners who may not know you, could you spend maybe a couple of minutes and just give a little bit about your professional background, you know, what did you do before you decided to retire and become a book author? And tell us a little bit about your previous career?

Joe Mynhier (01:25):

Well, before I was an author, I was an architect. Actually, I spent 30 years with BSA Life Structures. They nationally ranked healing, learning, and discover a firm that specializes in labs, research facilities, hospitals, basically institutional work. And as an owner in the firm, you know, I, it was 30 years that I spent with the firm and I learned a lot in that. And of course of that, prior to that, prior to that firm, I worked for several other firms. I had roles ranging from project captain to job captain. I started as a drafter after I graduated from Ball State University. The matter of David Letterman, you might want to mention that. The thing I learned in school was in college Ball State was about design grafting, drawing, really nothing about business, business development. But during the course of my education there, I had the pleasure of hosting an architect from Poughkeepsie, New York. Actually our class split up and each person posted an architect with experiences that had experienced for several days. And this gentleman is very patient with me. And I told him that I was going to graduate soon and that I was looking forward to maybe perhaps going to Chicago and working with Walter Netsch. And he advised on something that stayed with me. He said, “You may want to consider a smaller firm, learn more about the practice, learn more about the business aspect of it before you jump into a large firm.” And, and so I took that to heart and my, my career started with a five man firm. We all shared the same room. We covered every telephone conversation, all the conversations with bankers, etc. And so I learned early in my career, the importance of revenue clients work when it comes to paying, paying those bills and keeping the doors open. So I was a student, but I remain a student I’ve consider myself a student still learning. I learned something new every day, but I learned throughout the course of my career as a student. So, so my background was in architecture. But the other piece of advice, the gentleman gave me was that you really don’t start learning until you’ve been out of school for 20 years. I scoffed at that first because I thought, well, you know, I already know a lot, but he was exactly right. It wasn’t until I was out of school for 20 years, they really began to understand the relationship between the practice, the business and the people.

Katie Cash (04:17):

I love that the practice, the, the people, all of that really kind of keys you up to this next chapter in your life using that pun there, yes. To talk about your new book. So, you know, I want to talk a little bit about, you know, what inspired you to, to write this, this particular book and who your, who your audience is. But the main thing that stood out was really this, this point that you made, that people recoil at the word selling, they certainly do in the professional service world. You know, people hate to, you know, I don’t wanna, I don’t know if they, they think that we’re downplaying their technical role as being a licensed engineer or a licensed contractor or an architect. And we think that it’s, you know, by them selling themselves or their solutions that they’re, you know, at the same level as a used car salesman, right? So I think you talked about that in your book, you know, they’re first forcing their will on unsuspecting victims. I know you relate to this, you know, maybe share a little bit about what that really means to you and kind of how you opened or why you chose to open the book that way.

Joe Mynhier (05:21):

Well, I think that early in my career, as a student and, you know, we scoffed at sales, we embraced design, we embraced, you know, the idea of people coming to us to give us work. You know, you didn’t really have to pursue it. They would just give it to you very naive.

Katie Cash (05:39):

So did that really happen? Did that ever happen to you where you just got to sit back as you’re, as you are a design and just let everybody come to you, waiting for you to design their next project?

Joe Mynhier (05:56):

No. I didnt know too many people at the firm who did. I would like to have some of those to understand how they did it, but not for me. And I realized that I wanted to make the point contrasting sales, you know, an architect engineer. We don’t really sell things. We don’t sell objects. We don’t sell mass produced widget. cars, computers. You know, we’re selling ideas, we’re selling hopes and dreams. I mean something you, you want, but you can’t visualize things you dream. And so the difference between a car, selling a used car, and selling architecture/engineering service is quite a marked difference. And because you’re trying to convince how your service is going to make somebody’s lives better, but you can’t show that. You know, we use great three-dimensional tools. You know, we can do renderings, we do walkthroughs with computers, but it really, you really don’t capture the sensory nature of people. Even with those, it still comes down to conveying a sense of how your service or your design is going to improve their, their lives. So people that purchase architectural engineering skills are really purchasing trust, their purchasing trust that you’re going to do what you say, you’re going to do that your design will, you know, be original, be creative, it will be safe. So you’re really selling trust and people that buy your services are buying that trust and they’re investing their trust in you. And I think that’s an important thing to understand in the sales culture of architectural engineering services.

Judy Sparks (07:47):

Joe, I love that we often tell our clients that trust is, is in fact what you’re selling, because you know, an owner really can’t differentiate between an, A player and a B player. And it really does come down to that emotional sell of who do I trust with my building, with my project, with my vision. And I remember when we first met, you hired us to develop your go to market strategy for opening the BSA life structures office here in Atlanta. And I remember thinking to myself how natural you were at networking and even more impressive was your consistent followup. I mean, I told you that you needed to do something and I never had to wait on you to do it. You were always very consistent with your followup. So when I was reading your book, it was really surprising to me to learn for the first time that this was a, a learned behavior of yours. It wasn’t something that came intuitively and it really almost you know, what I gathered from your book was that, you know, had a boss in your early career tell you that you couldn’t possibly be good at sales as an introvert.

Joe Mynhier (09:03):

It’s a remarketable story. Yeah, I can remember it. I remember the time of year, I remember the color of the sky. It was an annual review and this gentleman, he was one of five partners. He brought me in sat down and I’ve never been a big fan of annual reviews, but that’s a totally different story. But I handed him my [inaudiable]. He barely glanced at it, put it down. He just looked at me and directly said, “Joe, you have no social skills. You don’t know how to deal with people. Your best future is to sit in the back room and be the best project captain. You can be.” My face turned red, my ears burned. I was shocked and he went into story about he and his brother who came over from England were coal miners. You know, they use their extroversion skills to become good businessman, but I likely would not be. So I need to come up with a different goal. So no, I, I had to give that a lot of thought at first I accepted it. Cause I thought, you know, resistance is futile. And, but one thing I did think of, I better start finding a new job.

Judy Sparks (10:18):

Right. Right. Well, and you did more than that. You found a new job and you also started to hone in a process for doing sales and you call this process, the hunting continuum in your book. Can you just talk a little bit about how you personally made that transition from, you know, back of the room drafter and that was your destiny to being one of the best introverted hunters. I know. And this process that you coin as the hunting continuum, what does that mean?

Joe Mynhier (10:53):

That entails, you know, a lot of people think that sales is selling a service. You know, I want you to buy I want you to hire us to design your building. And once you’ve hired us, I’m going on and hunt something else. No I’m going to go from one sales to another sales. But for me it was more a, a circular process of one gathering people’s trust, having them interest us with a project, leading the interview, negotiating the contract, getting the project started assembling the team and executing the project to a point where they would just give us more work. Then use that relationship to foster other new relationships. In other words, grow the network. If you start I had a story about, I had one good relationship. Mike grew into two new replacement, hospitals of major medical, but it was based on being involved in all aspects of a project from beginning sales to execution, construction, and follow up. So to me, the hunting continuum is a continuous process. It never really stops. Does that make sense?

Judy Sparks (12:21):

Absolutely. And I, I love that word continuum and I like the way that you talk about your network. Someone early in my career, my first boss told me, Judy, your network is your net worth and in this profession. And so I’ve always vowed to keep every relationship that I ever am lucky to make and to build on a continuous basis that network, because no, our profession is interesting this industry while it’s a very large multibillion dollar industry, it’s really kind of a small niche where a lot of people know a lot of people. And so one day someone’s your competitor. The next day, they work at the same firm issue the next day, they’re on the owner side and they can hire you. So keeping that continuum of your network, I think is so important. And sometimes I find that my clients might be a little shortsighted like, Oh, that owner has no money. I don’t need to return his call. But that owner then moves to a new hospital system that’s, you know, in the building boom. And they wish they had returned that call. So I think that that is, that is a really you know, simple concept, but so many people in neglect it. And I think it’s, it’s definitely worth talking about here.

Joe Mynhier (13:49):

It’s not about the great number of contacts you have, but the number of great contacts, you know, so many people talking, you know, I have a thousand followers or I have so many contacts, but how many of them do you really know? I mean, how close are you to those contacts? Can you get a contact to give you a reference? Can you have, will they give, ask you for advice? I mean,

Judy Sparks (14:14):

Will they return your email?

Katie Cash (14:21):

Yeah. Well, and the other thing I was going to add to it is and we see it often just people not realizing that the contact that they’re working with right now on a, on an active project, you know, you can continue to sell and to nurture that relationship with that particular person. And, you know, you might be able to, maybe you could add some scope to your project, or maybe you might find out that there’s a project coming down wind, but people often become too transactional. And just focusing on this is my contract right now. This is my project. I’m getting in, I’m out and they’re on with it. And, you know, they kind of let the relationship go by the wayside. And, and I feel like that’s just an opportunity missed. People that I’ve come across that does that do it well, really do value each and every contact, regardless of where they’re at in the food chain, within the client organization that they’re working with. And they really try to build that, that long standing relationship where they become top of mind when they have that next, you know, building boom, Judy, as you mentioned, or when they move on and maybe they are on the owner side and they’re in an opportunity to hire,

Joe Mynhier (15:24):

You never know who you’re your next client or your next boss is going to be.

Judy Sparks (15:28):

Absolutely. So, Joe, if you were to talk to a young architect today, that is, you know, an introvert or even an extrovert, but they’re not comfortable will sales because like you said, you know, architecture schools do not typically include, you know, business curriculum within the core. It’s available as an elective. And as you know, I teach a marketing class occasionally at Georgia tech. And, and these are, these are students that are architecture students that choose to take my class, but it’s not required to graduate. So what would you tell that young introvert or extrovert who’s just uncomfortable with sales? How does start thinking like a, a professional salesperson keeping the integrity of the professional side, but also growing their networks. So one day their net worth might be, might be aligned with what their overall goals are. How do they start with this hunting continuum? You, you mentioned some, some great tactics in your book.

Joe Mynhier (16:32):

I think that they start with, what is it they want to be? What is it they want out of their profession? What is it? They protect themselves for those 20 years, you know, 20 years after you’ve been out for 20 years, you know, where are you going to be? What are you going to do? How are you going to differentiate yourself from others? You know, I could have been, I could have been a project captain for 30 years, but I realized the importance of clients and relationships as it relates to work, as it relates to network, as it relates to financial success for any firm. And it’s the kind of thing that not many architects want to do, you know, to, to be a Hunter, to be an entrepreneur, some do, but a lot don’t and they depend on other people to be the Rainmaker, I’ll call it Rainmaker the person that brings in work and clients. But to me, those people are extraordinarily recognized and rewarded. I learned that very early in my career, and I think most architecture students will realize that when they’re out in, you know, working in the work world, that the people that bring in work and clients is something that’s on the other side of the media, let’s just put it that way. And I realized that early that you don’t have to be an extrovert to be super sales. You can be yourself, you can be an introvert, use your listening skills, your observation skills, your trustworthiness, your creativity, to be super salesperson. You don’t have to change. I think that a lot of people feel like they’re going to have to undergo some kind of metaphysical change to become a super salesman. When in fact they don’t, they have to develop their own brands. You know, how am I going to protect myself? How do I, you know, what, what do people see when they encounter me? How do they feel? How do we relate? And I think that I will, you cannot become super sales unless you’re motivated to do it. And the best way to get motivated, to do it as good work in an environment where you realize the importance of clients, people, and relationships that exist on all levels, not just clients, but interoffice relationships, you know, how do you relate to the people to make the firm a success? How do you relate to people on the outside as potentially new clients? People want to be treated, you know, as you want to be treated. It’s the golden rule. I mean, I keep, I think I probably mentioned that too many times in the book, but it’s absolutely true, but I think it’s the becoming motivated to use your innate skills to become super sales is probably the key. And when I was told I had no social skills, I’d never be good because I couldn’t relate to other people. I knew that was, I think in my heart, I knew that was wrong and it’s never a good reason to want to change, but it was just for me, the fuel that I needed to embark on a different path.

Katie Cash (20:02):

You know, Joe, I think people often get typecasted as either being introverted, extroverted. There’s this ambivert that’s in the middle, but you know, oftentimes individuals get, you know, if you’re cast as an introvert or an extrovert, there’s often these skills that seem to be natural or intuitive to them. What would you say are those introverted traits that you think really help people transition to be that superstar at sales and professional services? What are, what are some of those, if you’ll elaborate on that, just a little bit,

Joe Mynhier (20:36):

Number one, being a good listener, and it’s more than being a good listener. There’s being strategic listener, which we can talk about later. Observation, preparedness, introverts love to prepare. I mean, you know, if you ask most introverts, if you ask them to perform, they won’t do it until they practice it become proficient at it. And then they’ll perform, it’s the preparation. That’s the key to build confidence in any introvert to become super it’s sales, creativity. I think the creativity most people associate with design as creativity. I think how you approach problems and you know, potential clients is taking the pieces of information that you gather in your research and preparation to formulate a creative strategy that develops differentiators in such a way that it captures the client’s imagination. And what you’re saying, that is the, the secret sauce of most introverts and no two introverts are the same. I mean, I agree with, you said, one day you may be ambiverted or the next day. And it changed the day to day and you changed throughout your career, but there’s some basic things that most introvert share. And there’s been several articles written about that. So I think, you know, the, the listening, the preparedness, the analytics, the creativity are, are shared by most introverts.

Katie Cash (22:08):

I would tend to agree with that. And since you mentioned it you kind of teased it. I’m going to ask you to break down the difference. What do you see as being different from being just a good listener versus a strategic listener?

Joe Mynhier (22:20):

I hear a lot of people say I’m a good listener and they can agree regurgitate word for word, what somebody else says to me, each strategic listener is listening sensitively to hints and clues about what somebody is really saying. I remember being in a meeting with a client and, you know, I thought it was going to try to sell some planning services, but we were interrupted by a phone call, but he let me sit in the room and I could hear him talking about, yeah, I know that’s a problem. You know, I know we need to get people up on the nursing unit. Yeah. I don’t know what to do. He hung up and I could see his interest in me and taken a nose dive, but I heard, and that’s what the conversation said. This sounds like you’re having trouble with your emergency department. And he said, yeah, it’s a, you know, we’re, we’re over capacity. And we can’t get people up to the nursing unit. It continues to be a problem. And I said, well, you know, Saint Elizabeth had that same problem. We did an operation analysis and we’re able to increase the throughput through ED without any bricks and mortar. And he just tapped his pencil. And he said, can you introduce that person to me? Which I did. But I think that everyone, at some point in the conversation, and I think one of the best questions I ever asked a client is what keeps you awake at night? And invariably, they’ll, they’ll start talking about to see if there’s some issue they’re having with the department of health, their throughput issues. I mean, they, most people will respond. And if you listen carefully, there’s a deal in there that you can cut based on what they’re saying. And if you know the expertise of your firm, and if you know who the experts are in your firm, or even outside your firm, you can formulate an offer. Most clients will say, yes. They will say, can you do that for me? So it isn’t so much being able to say word for word, what they’re saying is concentrating on what they’re saying and looking for the clues of some, a problem that you can solve for them.

Katie Cash (24:41):

Sometimes it’s just listening for what they’re not saying.

Joe Mynhier (24:44):

Yeah. and you know, if they don’t respond to that, you can always say, well, if I were sitting where you’re sitting here be thinking about you know, the state of reimbursements as an example, and once you learn, you’re talking about they’re tattooed teenagers, they’ll probably respond with some good information.

Judy Sparks (25:05):

I was just going to say, I think that that’s really good, good advice, and practical that, you know, stories that a lot of our listeners can relate to. And that found themselves in similar positions. And something you said just now where he said, can you introduce me to that person is a nice segue to the next subject that you talk about in your book that I thought was so appropriate. And it’s this concept of quid pro quo. And I know that people have used that quid pro quo in a negative light as if that doesn’t happen every day. But talk to me about how you describe it in your book. And I think that, you know, professionals really need to understand that if you do treat others the way you want to be treated, and if you make an ask that you have to be, you know, prepared to return a favor when asked and the sizes of those asks should be appropriate. Can we just give us a couple of examples of, of where you’re coming from on this quid pro quo subject?

Joe Mynhier (26:13):

Yeah. we opened an office up in a new region and the first year we plan to get our name out there and meet contractors, meet clients, you know try to be better known. And so we had a lot of meetings and people said, well, yeah, no, I know. So, and so I mentioned it to them and I haven’t given you a call and, you know, on and on and on after the first year, not much happened. And I, that we had nothing to offer and return. But as soon as we had a project, then the same group started calling us, wanting to come in and talk about our project, you know, project managers contractors. And it just drove home. The fact that if you want people to do something for you, you have to be able to do something to them. And it isn’t just contractors. It’s your network of clients. You know, if you think you have a great relationship with a client, you can ask them to make a referral. Could you call so-and-so and, and, you know, put in a good word for us, most clients will say, yeah. And they’ll say, you know, I know you have this issue over here. I can help you with that. You know, you’re going to have to help them in some way to nothing happens without quid pro quo really doesn’t have a firm believer in that. I had a lot of the network that I have was based on that. Not everything works out the way you think. I mean, some, some wins become losses, some losses become wins, but your network is still the bedrock of what you do in sales. And if you use it and you cultivate it and you grow it and you mature the relationships using quid pro quo is the key to sales. This is the key to opening up doors.

Judy Sparks (28:11):

It happens at all levels. Doesn’t it, Jay, like from a like high level corporate standpoint, if you’re new to Atlanta, the way that you know, you and I met as BSA Life Structures, very established firm nationally, but, and had been in Atlanta for a long time. But you know, you were new to Atlanta and, you know, one of the most common things for people to ask when they’re new to a region is can you introduce me to XYZ firm or XYZ owner? And you were very good at, you know, being able to show your value of, Hey, if you help me with this, here’s some things I can do with your firm. And right now we’re sitting here, you know, going through a very unusual time with COVID and the pandemic and certain markets are booming and other markets are dying. And, you know, my clients that are, you know, unfortunately aligned with some of the dine markets are trying to align with some of the booming markets. And they don’t know anybody in those markets. So, you know, they’re landing on their, their partners. If they’re an architecture firm, they’re leaning on their contractor partners to introduce them to owners. And, but, you know, I am often telling them, well, what are you going to do for them? If they, if they leverage their relationship on your behalf, how are you going to help them? And it’s amazing to me, how many times they stunned that that’s an expectation. So I think that I really appreciated you writing about it in the book, because I think a lot of people are quick to ask for favors and they don’t really consider why it would be worthwhile for the person they’re asking to actually deliver on the favor they’re asking.

Joe Mynhier (30:02):

Right? And I think it’s important that if you do a quid pro quo, it has to be something you will, in fact, do promise something you can’t deliver. Don’t don’t promise something. You have no intentions of delivery because nothing ruins a relationship and the failure to follow up. People think you aren’t listening and think you’re misleading them. It just results in some bad, bad tunes all the way around. So once you’ve made the offer counter offer quid pro quo, you have to do it.

Judy Sparks (30:37):

So talk to me about the timing of quid pro quo. Cause lots of times it happens at teaming, right? So you team with us on this, where we’re strong and then we’ll team with you on this other project where the other party is stronger. A lot of times people expect that quid pro quo to happen simultaneously, but sometimes it doesn’t. So there is a lot of projects last year, where my clients were being approached to team on projects, where there are well positioned in the industry knew they were well positioned and they would come to me and say, well, should we team with this firm? And, and my first question would be, what are they, how are they going to reciprocate? And then they would go back to that teaming partner and say, well, we know you’re well positioned on this project. We’d like to be on your team for that project. And they would say, well, we don’t need you on that project. So they clearly did not get the concept of quid pro quo. So how many times have you experienced that in your career where it was a very one sided deal?

Joe Mynhier (31:44):

Actually, several, because I always had the habit of reaching out to competitors on certain pursuits because they may have had an expertise. We didn’t have, they had a geographical location we didn’t have. And some people get it and some people don’t, but I would reach out to a competitor and say, I know you’re pursuing so-and-so. So are we, what if we were to be a consultant to you on your pursuit? Because I always thought getting 20% of something is better than getting 0% of nothing. So I had no problem doing that. I said, we can bring you expertise, operational planning. I know you don’t have that, but it would make a dynamic team if we could do it. So if you include us, we can provide you with operational and be a big differentiator. So yeah, I did that in some firms. Got it. And we were successful team and other firms, what had nothing to do with Dallas. I mean, they felt that they can win without us and without that quid pro quo, but more often than not, it didn’t work. And I’m not saying that every energy was successful, but it kind of bridged the teaming with competitors to become partners.

Judy Sparks (33:09):

Well, and then when it comes to winning, that’s a completely different subject, right? So even though you’re qualified and you have resume, and like you said, maybe some unique capabilities like operational planning that your competitors don’t have. I also remember one of the early engagements we had together, you were interviewing for a significant project at one of the state universities here in Atlanta, where you were going to do a, a build out of a space inside of a shell building where one of the competitors on the shortlist was actually the architect that had done the original building. And, and I remember being on the phone call with you and a lot of your colleagues and you all were telling me all of the things that, you know, made you special. And I remember breaking some hearts on that call that said, every single one of your competitors will be able to say the same thing. And so at that point, how you told your story became key. So tell me a little bit about the section of your book, where you talk about presentations and closing the deal and practicing and how that is a completely different skillset than having the credentials to do it.

Joe Mynhier (34:27):

I closing the deal whenever I’ve given workshops on business development and the question always comes up is how do we close the deal? Everybody wants to get to, how do I win the work? How do I close the deal? The importance of closing the deal is knowing what’s your realistic goal. Is the deal a consulting engagement? Is the deal a return meeting? Is the deal, a multimillion dollar project? You have a realistic deal you want to close. And if you do, then you’re going to have to focus on the client rather than yourselves. You’re going to have to plan the engagement, bring all your analytics to the, the meeting. The presentation is listening and persuasion, strategic listening, and persuasion are basically the same thing. If you understand what the issues are, if you’ve listened to strategically, you think can begin to persuade a client as to why you’re differentiator is unique and that your service is going to satisfy a, need a dream and make their lives better. And you have to have a value offer. You’re going to have to have something that solves their problems specific problem in such a way that your competitors can’t. I think the art of persuasion and strategic listening are the key to closing the deal. I’ve had many times when I’m listening and I’m proposing and I’m persuading and the clients say, yes, that’s exactly what I want. Please do that for us. Then a day or two later, I’ll get a call and says, I can’t just give you this work. I’m going to have to send out a competitive proposal or something like that, but I’d never bothered me because I thought, well, I already know more about than anybody else. But I think that the strategic listening and persuasion and persuasion, isn’t like the used car salesman, twisting an arm to get somebody to say, yes, you’re trying to persuade the client to see the efficacy of what it is you’re going to do for them. It’s unique is a differentiator and will make their lives better.

Katie Cash (36:50):

Yeah, that is really, really, really great. As we wrap up today’s episode, I want to make sure all of our listeners know exactly the best way to get in touch with you. You know, where can they buy your book? Can you, can you share a little bit of that information with our listeners

Joe Mynhier (37:06):

Type in, Kindle eBooks, go to the website type in my last name and it’s M Y N H I E R. And believe it or not, there’s more than one minor off there, out there. And it’ll come up The Introverted Hunter that’s the book, and you can buy it ebook, or you can buy a paperback book. I wrote this book at the suggestion of my beautiful wife, Vivian, who stuck with me and believed in me and all these, this crazy career I had. And she said, you know, one day you need to write a book about this, the success you’ve had and share it with other introverts. So they know they can do it too.

Katie Cash (37:49):

That is great. So all of our hunters out there, get your ammo, go check out Joe’s book and make sure, you know, in the process that you rid yourself of any preconceived notion that sales is a dirty four letter word, it is something that is essential for all professional organizations out there, architects, engineers, contractors, everybody needs sales to build that pipeline in the individuals that are able to bring in sales for their organizations are often held with a very high value. So we want all of you out there to become great seller doers, embrace this new idea of, you know, selling your services through strategic listening, as Joe mentioned, and also remembering that you’re not selling a used car here. You’re really selling trust, you’re selling experience and your expertise. And it’s really just about building relationships. One step at a time, one day at a time. So Joe, I from Judy and myself, we really appreciate your time with us today. Hopefully our listeners have found some great little nuggets that they can take with them as they grow in their careers and design and construction. And we appreciate you being on today’s show.

Joe Mynhier (38:56):

Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it and with Joe Mynhier, Author of, “The Introverted Hunter”onI appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.

Voice Over (39:02):

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