Katie Cash [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the AEC Marketing for Principals podcast. This show is designed as a conversation between sales and marketing principals to address trends, challenges, and best practices that are driving growth for professional service firms. Through our collection of discussions with subject matter experts, industry legends, and leaders, we aim to share thoughts and practical tips with our listeners that that you can use for growing your AEC brands. Hosted by me, Katie Cash, Senior Vice President at Smartagiz, the AEC growth consulting firm that’s been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of AEC Marketing for Principals. Today I’m joined by two very impressive women who lead one of the Southeast Most respected firms. I’m joined today by Ms. Carrie Stokes, who is the newly appointed president and CEO of Barge Design Solutions, and her partner in strategy, Ms.
Katie Cash [00:01:04]:
Erika Booker, who is their chief marketing officer and senior vice president. For those of you that might not know, Barge has long been known for its commitment to people. I mean, for 70 years, in fact, they’re celebrating their 70th anniversary, and I think it’s a real testament to how that shows up in their culture in how they deliver customer service and their project delivery and really how they’re going to market. So I’m super excited that there’s two very impressive ladies at the helm of the firm leading this strong, well-connected marketing and sales entity. And I wanted to bring them to the conversation today so that we can really unpack what their story is and how they have shaped strategy, how that’s getting communicated, and how they’re using that to build stronger connections both internally, which is super important for culture, recruitment, and retention, as well as externally to the communities that they serve. So, Erika, Carrie, thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the show.
Carrie Stokes [00:02:00]:
Well, thank you, Katie, for having us on.
Katie Cash [00:02:03]:
I am super excited. So we’re just going to jump in and I kind of want to start first, I think, at the head, right? So we need to start with the president and the CEO. So, Carrie, that’s for you. And I know that you’ve been saying a lot that you view one of your biggest responsibilities to be that the people that work for you and with you understand the direction of the firm and the why behind what you’re doing.
Carrie Stokes [00:02:28]:
Yes.
Katie Cash [00:02:28]:
I really do think that speaks volumes about leadership style. I won’t say it’s just clearly a woman’s involved there, but I will say that it does speak to your style. So, Carrie, how do you define the why and how are you kind of tracking your impact as the new CEO?
Carrie Stokes [00:02:44]:
Yeah, no, that, that’s a great question and one that we certainly give a lot of thought to. And so, We want to make sure that everybody, that we’re moving forward together, that we have a lot of alignment across our firm. And so that really starts with communicating who we are, what we’re doing, and where we’re going. And it is that why, right? We’re dealing with a lot of technical people. Tell me why, right? And it is the larger why, and it’s the why it matters to them as well, right? And so we spend a lot of time making sure that we have regular communication And then sharing back the impact. So you asked about kind of impact, and in my position, you step back and it looks kind of, it comes in different forms, right? And so we are people first, and so we make impact through our people. And so we are really thoughtful about investing in our people, empowering our people. We want them to be curious, to collaborate, to come up with these best solutions.
Carrie Stokes [00:03:40]:
And we know that we’re making the impact, right? Because we hear it from our partners and our clients. And we definitely make an impact through our projects, right? So we do a lot of infrastructure and facilities work. And so it’s really cool when you get to drive down and go, and I worked on that, I get to work on that. You know, we are impacting quality of life where people live and work and play. And then certainly we are really pleased and just so proud that we have been around for 70 years. So we feel like certainly we are making impact through our legacy and that comes about by staying committed to our purpose, our vision, and our values.
Katie Cash [00:04:17]:
I really appreciate that. And it’s no small feat. I mean, you’re a multidiscipline firm, lots of very technical individuals that need to know not just the why, but the how we’re going to get there, when we’re going to get there, you know, how much fuel do we need in the tank to get there?
Carrie Stokes [00:04:33]:
Right.
Katie Cash [00:04:33]:
And then you’re also in a variety of different markets. You mentioned infrastructure, but there’s a lot of other things on there. So there’s some volatility in some of the markets in which you serve and You know, some of it could have a really long sales cycle. So, Erika, I’m going to pivot to you and just kind of get your take from the marketing standpoint. How are you taking, you know, Carrie’s big vision and interpreting her why and translating that into storytelling, both internally to get everybody all jazzed up and then externally to help you kind of fortify your positions in the markets in which you serve?
Erika Booker [00:05:07]:
Well, the first place I start is making sure I understand the why. Well, do Quick story about me. My— one of my aunts said that when I was a little girl, I used to always say, but why? Every time I was given a direction, I always wanted to know why I had to do it. And so that really resonates with me that Carrie is very intentional about explaining the why and also why it’s important to me. Why do we have to do it? And why is this important to me? And why is this going to help me with doing what I need to do for the firm? So I have to start there. And then at that point, it’s also collaborating and partnering with our other groups within the firm to make sure that the messaging is being— is permeating throughout everything they’re doing, whether it’s sales enablement, project delivery, internally when we’re having discussions, leadership discussions and meetings, how are we folding those messages into what we’re saying? People have to hear things multiple times before it starts to click and before it starts to resonate. And we also try to do that without being repetitive or redundant. So we try to find creative ways to say the same thing multiple times.
Erika Booker [00:06:12]:
Sometimes we’re successful, sometimes not, but— Yeah, yeah. You know, you can’t bet 100 all the time. So, that’s where I start. It’s making sure I understand the why and then helping our leaders communicate the why to their employees.
Katie Cash [00:06:27]:
I think that’s really important when we think about design and construction and delivering our service. It is a professional service industry, right? We’re selling the expertise of our individuals. We’re executing projects through individual interpretation of what project management excellence looks like in customer care. And being able to have a firm-wide why is great, but being able to help everyone on the payroll understand how that impacts them in their role in their daily life, I really do think that’s a really great way to ensure what we refer to in, in the world of marketing as brand living, right? Like that people really understand this is what we stand for, this is what we believe in terms of the customer experience, this is what it means for you Mr. Project Manager, geotechnical engineer, you know, surveyor, whatever your title might be, you have a role to play in this. And we’re all on the same team. And when we’re all kind of rowing in the same direction towards that same golden standard, then the market starts to expect that reputation. And then we become known for that.
Katie Cash [00:07:31]:
And then it’s kind of, you got to clear that bar every time, right? You got to keep it going.
Erika Booker [00:07:35]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Katie Cash [00:07:37]:
So, Carrie, while we kind of stay under the topic of leadership and setting that vision, I know you’ve been with the firm and you’ve grown from being an individual contributor as an engineer yourself, kind of moving up through leadership, and now you’re driving the organization. For any of our listeners that might be in that same transitional space or might be stepping into it in the coming months, what advice do you have for them moving from being that technical contributor to driving the ship and inspiring everyone?
Carrie Stokes [00:08:10]:
That’s a wonderful question and one that I’m really thankful at Barge was given quite a bit of thought, deliberate planning. And so anytime you’re making a transition, you really need to think about how are you going to set up that person for success and the firm and our partners, right? And so that’s what I thought we did really well as part of my transition is just there was so much planning and discussion to help not just prepare me to step up, which is important for the firm, but to communicate to our firm what was coming, what they should expect. And so like, I think one of the things that we did, and Erika and her team were really helpful partners, is as we kind of knew what was coming, we were very mindful. Some of us knew what was coming and maybe some not just yet, but we were mindful to increase my visibility. I was leading certain things, but putting me in front of the team to talk about those was being very thoughtful about engaging more with our external partners, right? So as this transition comes along, it’s like, oh yeah, I know who that is. And she, yeah, she has credibility. She did this. So I didn’t want to take for granted, yes, I’ve been here for almost 30 years, but we’re growing.
Carrie Stokes [00:09:21]:
We’ve had a lot of new people. And so I just would suggest it is worth the time to stop and to think about the goal of how you can aid the individual in the firm and what that looks like, right? And communication is just a huge part of that, and that’s something not to be just underestimated.
Katie Cash [00:09:41]:
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of listeners sitting here today that carry the technical alphabet soup after their name, you know, licensed engineer, project management professional, architect, that didn’t realize, hey, I went to school for this profession and I didn’t realize I’m going to have to do sales and marketing, and I didn’t realize I had to understand finance and accounting to run a firm or understand HR. There— it’s kind of this always learning position as you move up the corporate ladder. And I think one thing you just mentioned is having that goal in mind and understanding some of the other things you might need to do to be more successful, to build your executive visibility, build some of that internal credibility. So when you were leading, people know who you are and why they should listen to you.
Carrie Stokes [00:10:24]:
So, right. And one of the things I think that we have really worked on is we are technical professionals, right? And that’s why we went to school and we get excited about projects. And we are in the business of consulting, right? And so we work really hard across our business service teams, our leadership team, to make sure that we are helping educate our team members about our business, right? I mean, that’s key to our employee ownership, but it’s just key to that alignment. And I know one of the things.
Erika Booker [00:10:55]:
I’m really passionate about and have experienced in my career is me learning the business. 100% made me a better marketer. It helped me understand how that fits. So if I don’t know the business, it’s really hard to contribute in a really strategic way.
Katie Cash [00:11:12]:
And I think that was some advice I got early in my career as an AEC marketer was I was asked directly by one of my internal clients, Katie, if you don’t understand what we do, how are you going to help me talk about it? And so I was like, oh, well, I really do need to understand, you know, all these different delivery methods and I need to understand what all these crazy acronyms are. And I need to, I need to ask a lot of questions and I need to have friends outside of marketing. And Erika, I’ve only had a few conversations with you, but I think you yourself are your own consultant. Now, Carrie mentioned that Bard is full of consultants that really take that consulting piece to heart and how they’re executing customer service. But you’re doing that internally through the marketing lens. Maybe talk a little bit about what marketing leadership looks like within Barge and kind of how you’re championing the brand strategy for the next 70 years, what that looks like.
Erika Booker [00:12:07]:
Well, as it turns out, we’re actually in our business planning season now. So we’ve been having some of these conversations and they’re always, they’re ongoing. Carrie and I are in regular conversation about our vision, our strategy, and how we’re seeing that play out both internally and externally. And one of the ways, when I first started at Barge, I was tasked with pulling together our marketing group and our communications group. And for the listeners, at Barge, the communications group focused on corporate communications, external and internal communications. And then the marketing group was really sales enablement, proposal, client relationship support. And so pulling those two teams together to create some efficiencies, also grow and upskill, right? So my first order of business was helping them understand exactly what you just described, is that we are consultants to our partners within Barge. We are here to partner with them, not orbit those services, but partner with them.
Katie Cash [00:13:03]:
Or just stand in the order pad, right? Like we’re— Right.
Erika Booker [00:13:07]:
Exactly. Exactly. And quite frankly, that’s an industry phenomenon. It’s not special to Barge. And so I’m really passionate about that because I do think that when marketing couples with our technical professionals, magic happens and we are better at serving our clients in our community. So That is something that we are working on at Barge to make that— to help make it a more consistent experience across the board. And because we’ve laid out this really strategic vision for the next 5 years, and as Carrie is communicating and sharing with us and we’re adopting, we want to be here another 70 years and we have to do that together. We have to be in lockstep about how that’s going to happen.
Erika Booker [00:13:49]:
And so looking for those partnerships, not just with marketing, but how HR is partnering with our client leaders, how finance and accounting is working with our delivery teams. All of that is part of messaging and even our brand strategy. What we do every single day is our culture. It’s not just what we say it is, it’s how we show up. And as you pointed out earlier, when our people are dialed in and they’re on board, they’re the ones, they’re our brand ambassadors. So I see on LinkedIn and on our socials where our people are posting and they’re sharing and they’re applauding and celebrating the things that are happening at Barge, and they’re repeating the words and the phrases that we’re using internally. So we’re going, yes, it’s working. I’m not even sure they actively know they’re doing it, but when I see it, I’m like, yay.
Katie Cash [00:14:38]:
Yes.
Erika Booker [00:14:39]:
Yeah.
Katie Cash [00:14:40]:
And we love that. We love when firms take time to share kind of behind the scenes. I think the why gets everybody really on board, but making it to that personal level and helping them understand how they play a role in the bigger piece. And you just start to see the brand living naturally happen, and then you can reinforce it and shed a light on it through whether it’s social or those other things. So Erika, I’m just going to, as a fellow marketer, I’m going to have a sidebar chat with you. Your organizational structure of comms and then the sales enablement team, I think that’s pretty standard in the design and construction space. A lot of our clients. Operate that way.
Katie Cash [00:15:19]:
I know a lot of firms that, that we currently don’t have the opportunity to work with operate that way. And I think one of the biggest missed opportunities by not having someone like yourself kind of bringing those together is they wind up working siloed.
Erika Booker [00:15:31]:
Yes.
Katie Cash [00:15:32]:
And even with the best intentions, you forego the opportunity to really approach the market with a full funnel strategy, right? Where you’re focused with your sales enablement team on what you’re closing at the bottom of the funnel with those proposals and presentations. But you’re forgetting that whole process, top of funnel, middle funnel, really does lead to your ability to close. And so we often see those separations and you’ve got brand over here talking about all these great things, but the firm’s not chasing that stuff right now. And so when the owners and selection committees are going through their own due diligence and they’re checking you out, they’re like, I’m confused. Do they do this or not do this? Because I don’t see it on their website or. You know, this person’s LinkedIn isn’t up to date and I don’t think they’ve ever done a highway overpass. I don’t really want to trust them with that. So I find when they have individuals like yourself that are at least shepherding both teams, you do get greater efficiencies, but you always also get that knowledge share where you can collaborate a little bit better.
Katie Cash [00:16:35]:
And then you’ve got both teams kind of working towards that same why, because there’s transparency around what we’re chasing and the clients that we want. And then we’ve got these other great stories that feed in and help support all that positioning, that reputation building the next 70 years, as you mentioned.
Erika Booker [00:16:53]:
I agree 100%. That was the vision with combining these teams. Also, it creates some efficiencies, and we continue to work on that and really making sure that that is what’s understood even with our technical partners. So when it comes to our website and it comes to our proposals and it comes to the posts that we make on social media, our award submittals, making sure that those messages are consistent and making sure that it’s getting to the right audiences. We’ve had feedback in the past about, hey, our client went to our website and didn’t see this particular service that we’re there, we’re there talking about. I’m like, okay, great, let’s work together to get that posted onto the website. It’s also educating our employees and staff to know that, hey, I wish I was omniscient and knew everything all the time, but I’m not. And so things are fast moving., and we’re making decisions in real time about what to go after.
Erika Booker [00:17:43]:
And sometimes it doesn’t always trickle to the right area. So reach out, let me know. We can usually respond very quickly and get something up. So it’s really also creating a feedback loop across the firm to make sure that we all have the information real time.
Katie Cash [00:17:58]:
Hey listeners, if you work in AEC marketing or business development, you probably are juggling a lot right now between proposals, interviews, leadership expectations, onboarding new tools, maybe even new strategies, and you find yourself faced with not a lot of training that actually applies to our unique world of AEC. And that’s exactly why we built SmartSkills. I am excited to announce that Smartages is launching SmartSkills, a new affordable online AEC-specific training subscription program that’s designed to help AEC marketers and business development professionals think more strategically and execute with more confidence. This program is not generic marketing theory. It’s practical, tactical training focused on AEC positioning, pursuit strategies, even client engagement, and ways that you can work more effectively across both marketing and business development. I hope you’ll check it out. Go over to smartagees.com/smartskills to learn more about the new subscription offering. Well, and I think Carrie’s kind of leading that.
Katie Cash [00:19:02]:
It sounds like you’re helping everybody understand broadly the business behind Barge as you’re bringing up the next generation of leaders, and you spoke a little bit about that to your journey. Let’s see, I would love to maybe talk a little bit about all— or in the Southeast, you’re not the only design firm down here, are you? You know, we’re not. No, you know, I mean, and I feel like every day there’s more and more names showing up at pre-bid meetings or getting shortlisted. I’m like, who are these guys? Who are they? Where’d they come from? They’re coming into it There’s a lot of activity across the Southern Smile States in terms of development infrastructure going in. So I want to talk a little bit about what have you all done from a strategy standpoint? Don’t share your trade secrets, but to help you really stand out, and I think it’s twofold. You’ve been able to stand out to both attract and retain employees. You have great employee retention, by the way, and then you’re also staying in front of your clients. So how are you standing out from the sea of sameness with all of these other multidisciplinary firms in your space?
Carrie Stokes [00:20:12]:
I think a large part is our focus on our people. And so, as you said, kind of being able to retain and recruit talent, gosh, that’s key, right? And so at Barge, we are employee-owned, and so every team member has the opportunity to own stock in Barge. It’s not limited to a certain group. You don’t have to be invited in. And so I share that because I, I believe that really promotes— we’re communicating where we’re going together, but that even provides additional buy-in, right? We are truly all in this together. And our success, we reap the rewards from our success. And so I think from an employee perspective, that’s a differentiator. And then just when we think about our clients, so we have been in business 70 years, and I think that’s to the credit of the team.
Carrie Stokes [00:21:02]:
Because they have become trusted partners. So we don’t pursue projects, right? We want to pursue those clients who are aligned with our values. And we do, we have client selection. Are they a good fit for us? Can we bring what they need? Do they match how we work? And so I think just being really thoughtful about how we can establish and maintain that trusted partnership. And that’s what clients are looking for.
Erika Booker [00:21:27]:
Yeah, I think Reputation is absolutely the key and relationship building and focusing there. There are a lot, there are a lot of firms. And I used to say you could throw a rock and hit an engineering firm that does the same thing we do. And so when we talk about differentiators and people say the things like, we’ve got this service, we’ve got this, okay, we threw a rock, we hit 4 firms that have the same thing. Let’s keep going. So it’s continuing to dig and dig, but it’s, it’s what Carrie said. It’s what our clients say about us. Word of mouth spreads so quickly.
Erika Booker [00:21:55]:
And as you continue to build relationships and ladder relationships and spider relationships, when you meet somebody that knows somebody else, right, it’s the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. And they’ve heard Barge’s name and they’ve heard how Barge performs and delivers. They’re like, oh wait, I know somebody that told me you guys work with them. And then it goes from there. So it’s really making sure that we’re focused on those and being who we say we are.
Katie Cash [00:22:17]:
Well, and I think, you know, just about every firm in this space, when you ask them what makes you different, they all say, oh, it’s our people. And I’m like, that’s probably true, but that’s not tangible for me as a buyer because I haven’t worked with you yet. So I don’t know what it’s like to work with a Barge team versus ABC Engineering versus XYZ Engineering. You all do the same services. You all tell me your people are great. So until I hire all of you.
Erika Booker [00:22:44]:
I don’t know that.
Katie Cash [00:22:44]:
But I think one thing that y’all have done really, really well is practiced restraint of not going outside of who you really want to work for. And really honing in on that ideal customer profile and doing exactly what you just mentioned, Erika, kind of zippering those relationships, fortifying your market stance with them and making sure that everybody within those client accounts knows who you are and knows why you should be at the table because you make their lives easier. And you’ve got a point of pride that you can all point to as you’re driving down the roads that you do together or whatever those projects are. So it does become kind of that word of mouth thing that people want to share. And people love sharing those stories, right?
Erika Booker [00:23:26]:
I think restraint is a really good word because there is a lot of work out there and we have a lot of talented people at Barge. It’s the restraint of not trying to do everything for every client because that is not the way to maintain our culture and maintain who we are and grow sustainably. So restraint is a great word.
Katie Cash [00:23:45]:
And it’s hard, you know, and Kira, you could probably speak to this a little bit more because you see more of the numbers, you know, it’s it’s probably hard to turn down that bright, shiny new project opportunity, but you’re like, we really don’t have capacity to do that right now. That’s going to put us at risk.
Carrie Stokes [00:23:59]:
Or— Yes. And that’s the thing. I mean, when we think about our strategy, like a lot of people, okay, what do we need to keep doing? What do we need to lean in more? What are we not doing? Maybe we should. And then the hardest thing is always what should we stop doing? Right. But as Eric said, we can’t be all things to everybody. When we go after a project, we want to know that we can knock it out of the park, right? And so we do have a lot of conversation and it’s collaborative conversations. It’s from the sales team, it’s from the engineering team, it’s from the PM to say, okay, if this came, if we had to start tomorrow, how would we staff this? What would we do? Do we have the bandwidth? And there have been times where we have gone to clients and said, we would love to support you on this, But if it really is going to kick off 2 months from now, we’re not positioned to do that. If you can wait.
Carrie Stokes [00:24:48]:
And we’ve heard from clients like, man, thank you. Thank you for telling us that. Thank you for being honest. You know, maybe that one didn’t happen, but we got the next opportunity. So that just is aligned with our approach, right? We’ve— and if somebody comes to us and we’re not a best fit, we might suggest someone else. And so that speaks to the partnership. That’s how you gain trust in a partnership.
Katie Cash [00:25:10]:
Well, and I think that is really, really good advice for our listeners because Far too often I see firms chase projects that they don’t want because they want this client to know that they’re interested, but they really want the project down the, down the line, right? And I’m like, well, why are you wasting their time if you don’t really want this one? You don’t have capacity. You’re going to do a half— sorry, you’re going to do a half-assed job at this proposal and interview. Like, just tell them, hey, we wish you all the success for this project. We don’t really think we’re a good fit for it. We’re really excited about what’s to come. You know, let us know if we can help you in other ways, but this really isn’t for us. And 9 times out of 10, those clients are super appreciative of the blunt honesty. And then you’re not the only client I’ve heard that said, hey, we’ve got these opportunities left and right, and there’s more demand than we have actual capacity.
Katie Cash [00:26:00]:
We are lucky that we can pick and choose who we want to work with and what projects we want. But you’ve also got 70 years worth of trusted clients that all feel like a priority to you. So how do you tell them, hey, do this for you right now, but if you can give me another 45 days, I’ll be ready. But I really need to clean this up first before I commit to you. And a lot of clients are pretty understanding, you know, and ones that really want to work with you, they’ll find a way to make it work. And ones that can’t, you know, maybe you can put them in touch with someone that they should consider, and that’s a good faith, and they can come back to you next time because they remember those things. So Erika, you mentioned making sure you’re growing with intention and growing sustainably so that it, you know, kind of protects your culture internally, but also protects your brand. Carrie, as, you know, the president and CEO championing the new vision, how are you defining your growth from an impact standpoint? Because I know that’s a big thing at Barge.
Carrie Stokes [00:26:56]:
It is. And I would say all growth is not equal, right? So growth does need to be strategic. It needs to be aligned with our culture, our areas of focus. I’m going to repeat it again. We’re not trying to be all things to everybody. And so When we think about our impact, it really is about our opportunities for our people. Are we providing, are we growing in such a way that they can take on more, you know, new roles, different responsibility? And then it really goes back to serving our communities. So are we growing in a way that broadens our impact? And so that’s how we look at it, but it always has to have that tie to strategy because we can’t be going after that kind of new shiny object, right? Yeah, we can stay focused.
Carrie Stokes [00:27:39]:
Now, that’s not to say we’re not going to be opportunistic, but we’re going to vet it. But we’ve got to stay aligned with our strategy. And that’s where we will be impactful. And we can measure that impact. And you can see that impact. And it’s not just kind of shallow across, right? And that’s where you get that additional buy-in. People love knowing how they’ve made a difference.
Katie Cash [00:27:59]:
Yeah, I think that’s true. I’m going to pivot just a little bit, Erika. And I’m going to date myself here. When I first got into AEC marketing, you know, I was on the sales enablement team. I was doing proposals in Word, then I got to do it in Publisher, and then we finally made the transition to InDesign, and then we kind of shifted into more of a market-based marketing team where I got to do trade show activations and mailers through the mail, you know, and all those fun things. But the role of the AEC marketer today looks a lot different than when I first got into the industry, and there’s lots of new tools and technology, and I’m like, oh man, if I had this when I was 22, I would have been smarter than I thought I was then.
Erika Booker [00:28:45]:
Right.
Katie Cash [00:28:45]:
What are some marketing investments that you and your team have made that you think really have made an impact on your ability to work smarter, more efficient, provide better value maybe to your internal clients that some of our listeners might be able to consider as they’re budgeting for next year?
Erika Booker [00:29:02]:
So first, embracing AI. AI. Well, and it’s not because you want AI to necessarily write for you, but AI can create a lot of efficiency. So we have an internal innovation team and they have worked with us to design a resume tool that’s making it possible for our marketers to build resumes very quickly, customize resumes very quickly. We utilize a CRM and I highly, highly recommend investing in some sort of CRM. I know there are still firms that are using Excel sheets to manage their content, to manage their sales data, and I get that from a budgeting standpoint, but there are a lot of affordable CRM systems out there. And the idea is to help with the entire client lifecycle, pulling those things together. And a lot of them incorporate AI.
Erika Booker [00:29:52]:
We did not do that for our CRM system. We decided to create something separate. And so AI is someplace I would definitely invest in. Finding what works best for your firm is key. And then educating them. The other investment I would say in any of these technologies is making sure that their people are trained and know how to use these things effectively. And then also don’t forget about project delivery. We— I know this question was really around marketing, but all of those things ultimately will help you partner with your sales team and the project management team, because in order to communicate the messages across the board, our project management teams also need those tools.
Erika Booker [00:30:34]:
So AI, I’m sure that’s the, the buzzword right now in terms of investment. Yeah. The other place I would invest would be in the analytics. Okay.
Katie Cash [00:30:47]:
So I’m not a data-informed marketer. Like, let’s go.
Erika Booker [00:30:50]:
All right. Well, and this is where you can marry the marketing and the technical side, right? I don’t expect our technical staff to understand the metrics. I’m continuing to work on educating those around the marketing-specific metrics. Just like, even though I have made it my business to try to learn some of these things, there’s still a lot of things I don’t understand about what they do in the, in the numbers. But at the end of the day, being able to provide metrics and data to our technical technical teams helps make it tangible. When we talk about some of the things on the marketing side around brand voice, it’s blink, blink, blink. What do you mean? What are you talking about? What does that look like? How do I measure brand voice? And it’s not always something that is tangible. Well, we do have metrics and analytics that can be.
Erika Booker [00:31:35]:
So investing in products and software that can capture some of those analytics for you.
Katie Cash [00:31:39]:
I love that advice. And yes, I think everybody’s trying to wrap their arms around how they harness for AI, People want to hit the easy button and just let it write for you. But the reality is that most design and construction firms continue to grow. That means they’re adding people, which means the marketing team needs to build new resumes. And so if you can just find efficiencies in the mundane of keeping resumes up to date and accurate and, you know, on point for the pursuits that you’re chasing, I think it’s well worth the gamble. Now, you mentioned another golden egg, I think, for the marketers, and that is, hey, you guys should have a CRM, something better than a spreadsheet. I hear lots of marketers advocate and, you know, put in a budget request for a CRM. So, Ms.
Katie Cash [00:32:26]:
Carrie, I’m going to ask you, as the leader of a firm, what does a business really gain when you adopt a CRM? What is the impact that investment actually makes on the organization?
Carrie Stokes [00:32:38]:
It’s from several perspectives. I think it It is organization of that data, it is transparency, and as you grow, that becomes even more important, right? So one of our kind of firm initiatives is really about digital solutions. So as we move forward in 2026, we’re actually going to add a Chief Digital Solutions Officer. And I say that because that’s going to really put a lot of focus on our data governance, and that’s all kinds of data, right? Marketing data, HR data, product data, and our systems integration. So that’s why, you know, when we go to a CRM, it’s great that Eric and our team and our client service lead had transparency, but we can make better business decisions when we have that data, when we have our project data. And so that’s my why, right? It’s not just that we’re collecting this data and I can print out a report and somebody’s going to update it, but all of these things come together, right? Come together for us to make informed decisions as a business. And we want to make it easier for— to look at that data holistically and not have to kind of cobble it together and then go, yeah, I think this is what this is saying. Yeah.
Katie Cash [00:33:51]:
So is there any particular data point that you think a CRM can produce that the leadership team or the technical team will go, oh, okay, now I get it. Yeah, that’s valuable to me. I’ll help you update the records or I’ll give you the feedback loop, marketing team, so that you can give me these reports like this because this is my currency. This is getting me excited. Right.
Carrie Stokes [00:34:14]:
Like that. From my perspective, right, I’m interested in what is the investment, the BD rate, you know, what’s our investment in BD dollars to sales? How are we being good stewards of our business development dollars and time, right? And so I think anything that can aid that is really helpful and it’s just It’s increasing awareness, but then it’s also what are those opportunities where we can be more efficient, right? That— so kind of circling back to kind of how Erika started this.
Katie Cash [00:34:46]:
All right.
Erika Booker [00:34:46]:
For me, it’s definitely what Carrie said. It’s when we have somebody who’s really, really eager and passionate about this opportunity for a particular client or service, being able to say, okay, yeah, let’s look at this and let’s look at the data that we have and let’s see what we’ve done so far. Okay, we’re— it’s showing that we haven’t been really successful. We need to really understand that. We’re going to invest again. We need to understand why we were here and uncover what it’s going to take to make that change. And without that data, we tend to get caught up in the passion that the individual has for something. And there’s not enough context.
Erika Booker [00:35:23]:
And then we just rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. So that keeps us from making other investments.
Carrie Stokes [00:35:28]:
I think that’s the key. Like, is this going to add value or is this a distraction? Right? Because— and we could go and win this. But as we kind of said earlier, we’re a business. So what’s the profit margin? So we— how are we going to get focused to bring the best value back to Barge and to our clients?
Katie Cash [00:35:46]:
I think what you just mentioned too, Erika, is it’s so relatable. You know, we are full of what we think to be very logical-based technical individuals, right? Like they can math better than anybody in the design and construction space. They can put an Excel sheet together, make the numbers work. Get all excited, but when you talk about a pursuit, they get super like emotionally invested in it. And it’s like, I’ve been working this for 2 years, like my personal reputation’s on the line if we don’t pursue this. Like, well, you’ve been working this for 2 years. Did you ask these questions? Because if you know that the going rate is 2% on this, that’s not going to hit us our growth goals. So the data does help kind of bring back in that side of the brain, kind of lower some emotion.
Katie Cash [00:36:30]:
But then sometimes you’re going to say, yeah, okay, let’s go for it anyways, you know, but at least we’ve had the conversation. It’s always funny.
Erika Booker [00:36:37]:
And a system also empowers them, right? Them actively participating in maintaining the system, updating the system. It helps them claim more ownership, have the data like you said, and then be able to go ask the questions that can get them to the answer that they want or the goal that they want. The other thing that I will say that CRM does is it’s succession-proofing, it’s future-proofing. If we’re capturing the data and the history of our journey with that client when, as we like to say at Barrage, when that person hits the lottery and moves on from their role, we have lost all of that knowledge and that institutional knowledge.
Katie Cash [00:37:13]:
So, and we continue to talk more and more about data and the influence of AI. And the more and more you have your knowledge base secured in structured or unstructured data, whatever that looks like, but the better protected you are as an organization because people are going to move in and out. You know, people are going to win the lottery, their families are going to change, like whatever, something’s going to happen. Happen, but you want to kind of protect the business moving forward. This has been great. I’m going to, I’m going to ask both of you one final question because I love that I have both of you here today because you kind of both represent the primary banks of our listeners for the podcast. And so I’d love to know, Carrie, from your perspective, you’re representing the C-suite. What is something that the marketing teams could do, whether it’s helping to educate you on what the analytic googlygop really means or ways that they can help champion your vision.
Katie Cash [00:38:08]:
What is something that— piece of advice you would give in-house marketers to partner more with the C-suite?
Carrie Stokes [00:38:14]:
That is a good question. I think it is asking questions to seek to understand, because sometimes we do— as an executive, you get hit with a lot of data, right? And so instead of just providing a bunch of gobbledygook, hey, what is it that we’re trying to accomplish? Okay, hey, kind of deciding what those metrics are, right, that are really telling me the story so I can make decisions. And that’s a partnership because I think sometimes there is a tendency of I’m going to get this financial monthly report and I’m going to just kind of flip, you know, I’m going to not even really look at those 3 pages that somebody, maybe the marketing team, spent time putting together, but I don’t really get it right. And that’s not what I’m looking for. So kind of to take it back It might be a little bit different for everybody, but I think it’s having the conversation. Don’t make assumptions. And that goes a long way, I think, into establishing that relationship as true partners, right? And so sometimes we talk about, well, that’s a support group. Well, that’s a this, that’s a that.
Carrie Stokes [00:39:16]:
They’re our partners. And so let’s act like partners. And that is a two-way conversation of how can I help you be better? Okay. And then they’re asking me, okay, hey, what do you need? How can I be better? So I know I didn’t give you a specific thing.. But I just think it’s having and engaging in that conversation.
Katie Cash [00:39:32]:
I think that’s really great advice. So Erika, flip side to you, what do you wish or what would you tell your peer group marketers to seek from the CEO, the C-suite that they’re supporting? What do you suggest there?
Erika Booker [00:39:45]:
Well, I think you mentioned it earlier that Carrie started as an individual contributor and she’s grown in her career to this point. And so keeping in mind that the people that that you’re working with and that in your, as they call it, upline, they’re individuals just like you are. They are learners, hopefully lifelong learners. And so find that courage to ask questions, to raise your hand. If you don’t understand, say you don’t understand, but make it clear that you seek to understand. I think too often we’re worried about someone being disappointed or feeling like we’re not professional or we’re not really in our standing in our space we don’t know something, but we don’t come into this world knowing everything. We learn. So if you haven’t had exposure to something that you’re curious about, whether it’s how your company makes money, what the strategy is, how you’re going to achieve the strategy, or how you can participate in achieving the strategy, ask.
Erika Booker [00:40:45]:
Find people throughout, find your advocates, find people to collaborate with. It’s really up to you to design how you’re going to show up. And if we wait for people to tell us, especially in the marketing space, because I think it’s very easy to assume that marketers don’t want to know these things or don’t need to know these things. So we have to be vocal in communicating that we do and we do.
Katie Cash [00:41:07]:
Need to hear those things.
Carrie Stokes [00:41:08]:
Yeah.
Katie Cash [00:41:09]:
And I love having— asking the question. I also want to tack on and say we’ve got great tools like AI where you can have a Hey, I overheard this in a meeting. What’s a REIT? Is this new? You know, should I have this conversation with my financial advisor? But then you have to trust but verify it, you know, go back and say, hey, Carrie, the other day I heard this in a meeting. I’ve done my research. Am I interpreting this right for us? And I think that the best advice is building those relationships and not being afraid to have, you know, moments of.
Carrie Stokes [00:41:47]:
Vulnerability and asking some questions.
Erika Booker [00:41:49]:
Agreed. Don’t be discouraged if someone doesn’t offer you a response.
Katie Cash [00:41:54]:
Try someone else. That’s great. Fantastic advice around different ways to make impact from the C-suite to the marketing suite. So I love both of that. For any of our listeners, ladies, that might wanna connect with you or learn a little bit more about Barge, I mean, obviously they can Google it or, you know, have their AI chat, but what’s the best way for them to reach out and maybe stay connected?
Erika Booker [00:42:16]:
With you? For me, it would be LinkedIn. Okay, LinkedIn, Erika with a K Booker. You can find Barge at bargedesign.com for our website, and then on socials, LinkedIn and Instagram, Barge Design Solutions. Also, for the record, listeners, we do not— repeat, we do not design and create barges. Let it be known.
Katie Cash [00:42:39]:
I have to say that market confusion right now.
Carrie Stokes [00:42:45]:
Provides design solutions, not barges. Exactly. And anybody can reach me on LinkedIn as well.
Katie Cash [00:42:52]:
So I love that. And congratulations to both of you and your positions. It’s really impressive and exciting to watch women reach those positions within, you know, what seems to be a fairly male-dominated organization. So congrats to both of you and congrats on your 70th anniversary. As we round out the year. And I thank you both. And to all of our listeners, thanks for staying till the end, and we will see you again next time on AEC Marketing for Principals. AEC Marketing for Principals is presented by Smartegies, the AEC growth consulting firm that has been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008.
Katie Cash [00:43:33]:
The show is hosted by me, Katie Cash, Senior VP at Smartagees. I would love to hear from you. If you have a question, a guest request, or a topic request for a future episode, send an email or a voice memo to [email protected]. And if you’re looking for past episodes, be sure to visit our podcast page at smartagees.com/podcast. We hope you’ll tell your friends and colleagues about our show, and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss out on future episodes. Thanks for listening.