Katie Cash [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the AEC Marketing for Principles podcast. This show is designed as a conversation between sales and marketing principals to address trends, challenges and best practices that are driving growth for professional service firms. Through our collection of discussions with subject matter experts, industry legends and leaders, we aim to share thoughts and practical tips with our listeners and that you can use for growing your AEC brands. Hosted by me, Katie Cash, Senior Vice President at Smartegies, the AEC growth consulting firm that’s been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008.
Katie Cash [00:00:43]:
Let’s take a quick minute before we start today. Today’s episode is number 100 for AEC Marketing for Principals. And if I’m being honest, when we record each of these episodes going back to the beginning, I didn’t know if anybody would actually list, but here we are. What’s been consistent across every conversation is this. AEC firms are trying to grow. The playbook is not keeping up. And that’s why I feel like Today’s episode number 100 is Super Special. Today I get to sit down with my partner in strategy, Judy Sparks.
Katie Cash [00:01:16]:
We started this show together seven seasons ago and today we get to talk about her new book, the Modern AEC Marketer and the structure that she puts in the book around clarity that so many of us can use to to face the challenges that we’ve been unpacking on the show episode after episode. So if you’ve been with us for a while, today’s conversation in Judy’s book is going to feel like everything’s coming together and I hope you enjoy. Thanks again for joining us. Hey everyone. Today’s episode is a little bit different. I’m interviewing my boss, my partner in strategy. You guys all know her, Judy Sparks. She is now an Amazon best selling author, y’.
Katie Cash [00:01:58]:
She just wrote her new book, the Modern AEC Marketer. And no, today’s episode is not a book tour or a book reading. But I really do think that it’s important for us to have a conversation that helps to put language around what a lot of firms that we’re working with are feeling. And we all kind of understand that the market has moved, buyers are moving, changing, kind of how they go about validating firms and selecting firms. And the old playbook simply isn’t keeping up. And that’s what the book is all about. So Judy, thanks for taking time out of your day and coming on the show. It’s good have you back.
Judy [00:02:35]:
Thank you, Katie. I’m not sure about this video aspect of the podcast this year, but we’re going to go with it. It’s good.
Katie Cash [00:02:43]:
You look great. You look like the easy truth teller that’s you got the memo to wear stripes. So I think we’re right, right? Yes.
Judy [00:02:51]:
So dress the part. Dress the part.
Katie Cash [00:02:53]:
Dress the part is for sure. Dress for success. Right? That’s what they always say. So Judy, you know you’re close to the podcast you’ve been on here a lot of times. You know, our audience is the marketers as well as the principals. So let’s start with the principals. If any of our AEC principals are listening today and they’re sitting here thinking, why do we need a new marketing book? Tell them, you know, maybe they’ve never even had a marketing book, but why do they need a new one?
Judy [00:03:22]:
Well, honestly, Katie, and you’ve heard me tell this story, but when you spend your entire adult life in one industry, you start to have opinions about things. And over time I started to understand that there’s this larger systemic issue in the industry when it comes to the space between marketers and non marketers. So honestly, this book came from having a front row seat at the leadership table and being part of that conversation with literally hundreds of AECS firms over the course of my career. And much of it, you’ve been there, right by my side, Katie. And we’re sitting there, conversation after conversation, CEO after CEO, marketing team after marketing team. And it just dawned on me, actually
Katie Cash [00:04:17]:
quite recently,
Judy [00:04:20]:
we don’t have a tactics problem in this industry. It’s more of a systemic issue. And what that is, in my opinion, is that there’s a real disconnect in our industry between how AEC leaders think about marketing and how it works and how marketing actually works. That’s not a jab or a stab at the, at the non marketers in our industry. It’s just they didn’t go to school for marketing and they’ll be the first ones to admit that. It’s not like I’m telling them something they don’t know about themselves.
Katie Cash [00:04:53]:
Oh, I know. I’m sitting with those CEOs and they’re like, you have to talk to me like a kindergartner.
Judy [00:04:57]:
What? Right.
Katie Cash [00:04:58]:
What is SEO? You know, what is this? What is that?
Judy [00:05:01]:
Yeah, but the difference is, is that our clients, our CEOs, they’re asking those questions, right? Yeah, they’re educating themselves because they’re very self aware that they don’t have the education behind marketing. And so, you know, in this gap between how leaders think about marketing and how marketing actually works, it’s been there for a long time. I think the industry’s just normalized it. And we all know that AEC has always been a relationship driven industry and that model worked for a really long time. So, you know, really understanding how marketing works wasn’t really a priority until very recently. When I say very recently, within the last maybe five, seven years, since the pandemic, maybe a little bit before the pandemic. But because of that, marketing got positioned as support in our industry, as overhead and as a team that makes things look professional rather than the function that actually drives growth. And you know, for me, I think that there’s something that everybody thinks that the truth teller is coming out.
Judy [00:06:13]:
I’m famous for saying what everybody else is thinking. So the thing that nobody really wants to say out loud is we have entire firms, we’re highly technical professionals who are incredibly smart at what they do, but have no background in marketing. Actually directing the entire marketing function.
Katie Cash [00:06:34]:
Yeah, it’s not all common.
Judy [00:06:36]:
In what universe does that make sense? If you really just step back and, and say we believe that people should have the skills for any given job and if you don’t and you’re in a position that you’re not formally or even informally trained for, then how are you in a position to lead? And then we wonder why there’s so much frustration on both sides of the table. We witness it every single day with some of our clients where, you know, the non marketers, those internal clients, the seller doers, are beyond frustrated with their marketing teams and the feeling is mutual. There’s clearly a gap and I wrote the book because I wanted to help fill the gap. I am not saying you need a marketing degree to run a marketing department, but if you’re going to be the one in charge, you owe it to yourself and those you you lead to at least learn the fundamentals.
Katie Cash [00:07:31]:
Yeah. And today there are so many tools available that you can get up to speed pretty quickly.
Judy [00:07:37]:
That’s right. There’s really no excuse. Right. Like if you out ask Chatty P. Like there really isn’t any excuse for someone to be uneducated about anything these days with, you know, all of the AI available and the resources around you, it’s not that hard to educate yourself.
Katie Cash [00:07:57]:
Yeah. I think the first piece is just like you mentioned, is having self awareness that maybe they don’t know it and ask some really pointed questions. Judy, I do want to dig into some of the key components of the book. And you know, anybody that’s been around the podcast or been around smarter GS for a while. You can’t come to a smarter GS event, a smart skill or smart win. Or come see us at a conference where we’re speaking, where we don’t show a diagram of the marketing funnel, where we don’t talk about full funnel, where we don’t talk about, about top of funnel, bottom of funnel. But in the book, you talk about the funnel actually not being a diagram. So what does that really mean for architecture, engineering and construction? What does that really mean for the industry and the context there?
Judy [00:08:44]:
Okay, so most firms, when we present the funnel, they think like they are taking it as if it’s a suggestion, okay. And like it’s some intangible marketing theory that, you know, their marketer is trying to sell them on. But in reality, it’s a set of behaviors. And the funnel first came into business philosophy in the 1800s. And it was conceived as a way to demonstrate how consumers behave on their, you know, journey to buy whatever, whether it’s a product or a service. But consumers behave a certain way on this journey to purchase something and the process. The funnel is really a diagram of how influence works. The funnel’s effectiveness is dependent on how consistently a firm shows up, how clearly you position your firm, and how intentionally you move the relationship forward over time.
Judy [00:09:41]:
That’s why I say it’s a discipline, because it requires consistency. And consistency is where most firms struggle in our industry. Too many seller doers and BD people do not have an actual system. They truly believe that if they attend everything and become friends with everyone, that that will be enough. Or if they just do good work
Katie Cash [00:10:06]:
and the phone will keep ringing. We hear that.
Judy [00:10:08]:
Well, there’s that too. Yes. And for a lot of firms, it is enough. That’s the thing that marketers have to realize is like, not every firm has aspirations to scale, but if you are a firm that has aspirations of truly scaling, and particularly organic scaling, where you’ not going to grow by way of acquisition, but you want to grow steadily year over year, or those firms that want to actually monetize their exit, they really need to treat the funnel as a discipline, not a diagram.
Katie Cash [00:10:44]:
I think that’s super helpful. We are very visual learners and I can see how it could just be thought of as maybe an infographic and not actually a discipline and a practice to follow and ways to really help firms think about, we’re a healthcare design firm. We want all these healthcare folks to come into our funnel. And we don’t want to work with every healthcare provider. But Maybe we just want to work with those that are doing behavioral health and we’re going to help them consider us and then we’re going to help
Judy [00:11:16]:
close at the bottom and treating it as a system. Right. Having the discipline, it’s not about understanding how the funnel works. It’s about actually having the discipline to operate inside of it every day. It really informs what events you go to, when you show up, what you’re sending out to the masses. Everything leads back to those strategic priorities that you have set forth for yourself and your firm. I think that BD and our industry more often than not is like a game of chance. And there’s just too many ways to control that narrative now that it’s irresponsible not to.
Katie Cash [00:11:57]:
Yeah, I mean, we, we’ve worked alongside a lot of firms that, before we’ve worked with them, you know, maybe their, their marketing plans included a lot of events where they just went to events, and there was no strategic approach of how they were going to activate it. And I was like, well, who do you want to meet there? Well, I want to meet this guy. Well, how are you going to make sure that you don’t just randomly bump into them at breakfast? You know, how do you, how do you do that? With intention. And then what are you going to do after you meet them? Because they’re meeting 300 other people while they’re also there. So maybe let’s talk about another fundamental from the book, and that is this idea of, okay, we’re building consistency, we’re building discipline with the funnel, but where do firms lose momentum the most when you start thinking about things? Calling all AEC marketers, it is our time to rally. The next generation of leaders in AEC are not going to look like our predecessors. The next AEC marketers are not just going to respond to RFPs. They will shape demand before pursuits ever exist.
Katie Cash [00:13:00]:
They’ll understand brand, they’ll understand visibility and market strategy. And they’re going to understand it not from just a standpoint of marketing buzzwords, but truly how it drives revenue for their specific firm. That is the shift that my partner in strategy, Judy Sparks, has laid out in her latest edition of the Modern AEC Marketer. Her new book is a guide for marketers, seller doers and principals alike, all who know that the industry is changing and they want to be part of that change. Maybe some of them even want to lead the change. And if you’re ready to stop playing it small and start influencing how your firm grows with intention, this book is for you Go on over to Amazon. You can search for the modern AEC marketer and you can get a copy of Judy’s new book today. It’s available in paperback as well as on Kindle.
Judy [00:13:53]:
Top of funnel, hands down, every time, the industry is pretty solid when it comes to pursuits. I mean, when I occasionally have a glimpse into other professional service industries, say, like law firms, they have the pursuit craft down. Like AEC marketers. Like, we own that. That’s our jam.
Katie Cash [00:14:15]:
They have whole divisions that all they do are proposals, everything. I hope that we have found great efficiencies. And I mean, there’s a whole career around being proposal specialists. So, yes, we’ve got that.
Judy [00:14:27]:
Yeah. So the industry is pretty solid when it comes to the bottom of funnel close to the time of purchase. But I think today some firms are starting to lose more than they win. They’re not used to that, and they’re asking themselves why. And I believe that it’s because they didn’t build enough belief or affinity for their brand before the pursuit ever started. At the top of the funnel, by the time you’re in an interview, the committee is either confirming a decision that they’ve already made inside their head in most cases. And if you’re a selection committee member, even if you’re not trying to be influenced, even if you’re not actively seeking the information, which we know they are, had plenty of owners on the podcast that confirmed, like, by time I talk to you, I know everything about you. We have, we have a lot of anecdotal evidence to that.
Judy [00:15:18]:
And plus, all the research points to the younger buyer, does their homework way before they.
Katie Cash [00:15:25]:
I say, my entire owners panel at smartwin was like, listen, when I have a meeting with you, I’ve already looked you up. I know everything. Like, don’t waste my time. I’m educated.
Judy [00:15:36]:
Exactly like, you did your job making me interested. Now make my airtime in front of you worth it.
Katie Cash [00:15:41]:
Right, Right.
Judy [00:15:42]:
But even if you’re not out there seeking that information, try not being influenced as a buyer. If you spend any time on the Internet, if you go peek at your own LinkedIn, you’re inundated with messaging, you know, from people who want to partner with you, who want to sell to you, who want to be your client. I mean, I spend an embarrassing amount of time online every single day during the workday, but it’s work because that’s how people are finding our firm. Even if you’re not trying to be influenced as a buyer, you’re being influenced. And it’s because if you’re not the firm out there influencing them, you better bet that your competition is. And we know that to be true. So when it comes time at the bottom of the funnel where the RFQ comes out and every firm who’s qualified is going to pursue it, the ones that established influence with that buyer at the top of the funnel are coming out on top. And we’ve watched this time and time again in our firm, where we do this every single day.
Judy [00:16:54]:
We have clients who know that in 60, 90, 120 days, they anticipate an RFQ is going to drop. And leading up to that RFQ dropping, what are we doing?
Katie Cash [00:17:08]:
Yeah, we’re positioning them. We’re leveraging all of our channels that we can to make sure that audience knows who our client is, how they matter in their context, the value that they bring, kind of helping to hedge off any misconceived notions that they might, you know, maybe they only know them for a certain service and we want to make sure they know them for their full service offering. Maybe they are only known for small jobs and this is a really big job. And so we want them to be known that they can have more capacity. But yes, we’re using LinkedIn, we’re using online advertising, we’re using newsletters, we’re using events, we’re using every touch point that we can. We’re activating the subject matter experts to have talking points in those natural occurrences leading up to that rfp. For sure.
Judy [00:17:54]:
Yeah. And we are targeting the selection committee members, sometimes directly.
Katie Cash [00:18:01]:
Yeah.
Judy [00:18:02]:
Wherever they are on the Internet. And there’s just so many very cool and affordable ways to do that that it’s surprising that more firms are not doing it. But maybe people see that change as we’re starting to see momentum in our own work. Right. Firms calling us. And it makes me smile when I get a call from a nonprofit marketing principle and he says, I need help with top of Funnel. I have. I’ve done my, my job for the industry.
Katie Cash [00:18:36]:
Yeah. I think, you know, on this whole subject of getting momentum and earning top of Funnel, you’re right. You know, it’s, it’s fairly easy, fairly inexpensive to quickly throw up a campaign and get right in front of that audience that you want. And you don’t have to leave it up to chance. You don’t have to hope that your seller doer runs into the right person at the conference or that that person even attends because you didn’t get the attendees list. But they’ve been in the past so hopefully they’re coming. But let’s keep with the theme of momentum. So this is a relationship driven sales industry that’s not going anywhere.
Katie Cash [00:19:13]:
We know that, that we’re professional services. We’ve heard it from owners. They want to know the team behind the brand that’s going to be on their project. But we also kind of realized that we have fairly long sales cycles, you know, months, years, multiple years in some cases. So what does maintaining momentum in these touch points, with these buyers in those conditions really look like?
Judy [00:19:38]:
So momentum looks like being present before you’re needed. So it’s when your name keeps coming up in conversations, when people feel like they know how you think before they ever meet you. I mean, how many conversations have we had with our clients? And they talk about like this teaming partner that they’ve never met in a way, as if they know them. Oh, and this is how they do this, and they did this and this is how they think. So I know that’s not really what comes in to mind when you say momentum, but in order for that to happen, that means something happened consistently to influence that person’s belief in you and in your brand. So I believe we will always be a relationship driven industry. But I don’t think that relationships start with a handshake necessarily anymore. They begin online long before anyone knows there’s even a project.
Judy [00:20:36]:
And so the momentum again, just tying it back to top of funnel, it’s having the momentum to know who you are, know who you’re here to serve and to consistently stay on that path. Yeah, I think that’s super important these days. More so than in years past.
Katie Cash [00:20:57]:
Yeah, I think that’s really, really helpful. We’re seeing more and more often, especially in this new wave of answer engine optimization. And we’re all using our chatty Ps and our tools, our AI tools.
Judy [00:21:09]:
Chatty P is my best friend, but we should credit Scott Steiding for coining. That’s that Caddy P. I don’t want, I don’t want to have any trademark infringement here on the show.
Katie Cash [00:21:22]:
Yeah, well, this whole idea of trying to be everything to everyone and trying to make it like any client is the ideal client for you. If I’m looking at your website or if I’m perusing social media or, you know, maybe I’m watching some of your YouTube channels, it’s really working against a lot of firms. And so for those firms that have really said, okay, this is who we are, these are the clients that we work with, this is the kind of work that we do and we want to do. And they really, really owned and they’ve kind of practiced some discipline around staying within those guardrails. I think they’re going deeper in those markets. They’re bringing a higher level of brand awareness and you know, strengthening their relationships in their perception in those particular areas versus trying to be everything to everyone. And I think that’s really, really working for them to build that momentum around their brand. Judy, let’s pivot for a minute.
Katie Cash [00:22:15]:
I want to go back to something you said earlier about it’s not uncommon in our world for a non marketing professional to be the managing principal of the marketing teams and for them to be directing the marketing teams. And you talked a little bit about how your book strives to fix the gap there. And so what I’m picking up on is it’s not so much that we have a marketing tactic problem, but there’s an alignment problem. There’s a, there’s an alignment concern maybe if it’s not a true problem. So let’s talk a little bit more about what you mean with this alignment problem.
Judy [00:22:52]:
So Katie, we see it all the time. If your website says one thing and your BD team says another thing and your proposals say yet something else, that’s not a marketing problem. I know everyone’s going to be be like, no, it’s 100% a marketing.
Katie Cash [00:23:09]:
Marketing handles all of that. Yes. Right.
Judy [00:23:12]:
No marketers, I’ve got you. Listen up. That’s a lack of agreement problem on what you’re trying to be known for. That’s a leadership problem.
Katie Cash [00:23:22]:
Yeah.
Judy [00:23:23]:
And yes, the marketer should be part of the leadership team. But that is a conversation that doesn’t happen often enough at firms. And you know what, marketing gets blamed for it, but they don’t control all the inputs. So that’s why I advocate so strongly for marketers because they’re often expected to fix something that they don’t have the authority to align.
Katie Cash [00:23:47]:
Yeah, I mean we see that a lot where we’re auditing habits, processes, tools, you know, deliverables and marketing is touching a lot of things, but the input is coming from so many different people and the left hand and the right hand don’t even know they’re on the same body sometimes. Like it’s, it’s very disconnected.
Judy [00:24:09]:
Or how many times is it a really good idea for a firm to have evergreen content like a podcast or a webinar series and the entire idea is set, you know, shut down because there’s a single principle that’s uncomfortable, can’t articulate why they’re uncomfortable, doesn’t argue that it’s a great strategy to drive top of funnel thought leadership, but the entire firm strategy is going to stop because there is a personal discomfort of one or two individuals. I guess that’s why I’m the truth teller.
Katie Cash [00:24:47]:
I was about to say easy truth teller.
Judy [00:24:50]:
Folks tell me that’s not true. And the thing is, marketers speak up. You know, you don’t have to be rude about it. You don’t have to, you don’t have to be all of this. But you can say, hey, y’, all, is there a way we can remove that barrier from our path? You know, maybe that principle doesn’t have to be part of it. Yeah, you know, maybe there’s another way forward. But the merits of the idea is still have business legs. You know, I think that’s the other thing is just business literacy should be a requirement of professional service firms if you are going to be a principal, regardless of what discipline you’re responsible for technically or from a corporate standpoint.
Judy [00:25:37]:
But if you are going to be an owner in a firm, you really need to understand, you know, the business aspects of how the firm is going to scale. And I think that too many times there’s not a structure for decision making inside firms. And you know, the thing is, our industry is full of really considerate, great people. And you and I, we’re not going to talk about the name of the firm, but we worked two years with a firm that had been around a hundred years that had a very large partnership group that could not make a decision, and that firm went out of business. I mean, we see it all the time.
Katie Cash [00:26:19]:
Yeah, it is true. And I think some of the best advice I think you might have even given me early in my career is marketers are in a great position because they get to touch so many different parts of the organization. And if you are curious by nature and you’re reading the materials that you’re producing, you’re picking up on how you’re selling yourself. You’re picking up on the buyer pain points and what the owners want. And you’re often in a really great position to suggest ideas. Marketers are, hands down the best storytellers. And you can conceive a story from a lot of different inputs, whether it’s, you know, sitting in on some intern meetings, maybe you’re rewriting a project sheet, or you’re interviewing someone for a project approach that might inspire something. And so being able to pitch those ideas and I know we’ve seen a lot of marketers that have been somewhat disenchanted by that idea because their ideas haven’t always been accepted.
Judy [00:27:17]:
It’s hard to show up every day if every idea is shut down. And it’s not shut down with the business explanation to go with it.
Katie Cash [00:27:26]:
Right. And that’s the advice that you had given me. It was don’t just turn face and turn around, but ask. Okay, well, let’s unpack that a little bit. Why are you uncomfortable with the podcast? Is it xyz? You know, from my perspective, I’m thinking it checks all these business boxes. And again, it’s not just that I want to do it because I want to be a podcast host. It’s. No, this makes good sense for the business.
Katie Cash [00:27:48]:
But in asking those questions, I understand where the friction points are. If it really is tied to maybe a business nuance that I didn’t know about, that helps me grow professionally, or I can come up with another solution to get around that friction point. But just blindly accepting no for an answer isn’t always the best way to advocate for your careers and your thoughts.
Judy [00:28:10]:
Well, and for the marketers, you know, you can’t act like a support function, take no risk, not speak up, not stick your neck out to advocate for the best interest of your firm, and then ask for a seat at the leadership table. You have to earn that. And sometimes earning that is having uncomfortable conversations that are for the betterment of the company. And, you know, our good friend Bill Hindsley at psmj, I think he was the one who quoted, you know, the quality of your life is directly tied to the number of uncomfortable conversations you’re going to have. And I think that’s so true in our industry, especially for marketers, because when you choose to be an AEC marketer, you’re signing up to be more than just a marketer. You’re also an educator. You’re also a coach. You have to come from a place of empathy where you understand that your internal customer needs your expertise to show up.
Katie Cash [00:29:12]:
Yeah. So this is all in the spirit of alignment. So on the show, I always like to try to give some practical takeaways that listeners can either reflect on or maybe even put into practice. So what is one alignment check that they could take back to their teams and maybe run this week or, you know, run this month?
Judy [00:29:34]:
So my favorite part of the book is in the second segment of the book. In the first segment, I. I explain why it’s so aec. And then in the second Half of my book I give tools on how to fix it or how to move the needle at least. And little exerc that marketers can do to help influence good marketing inside their companies. So I would tell you, go ask three people in your firm. Say your BD lead and ask them separately. Your marketing lead and your managing principal, your CEO, whoever.
Judy [00:30:14]:
Is that the bigger voice of all the principals? The managing principals. And ask them the same question, who are the firm’s highest value customers? I bet you get three different answers and you may even be met with I don’t know. Right there is where you start your alignment process. And that’s not something a brochure or a new website is going to fix. I mean, how many companies call us and say we want to rebrand and when we dig into that, they’re wanting a new brand identity because they want it to fix a perceived business problem. And they’re. Those two worlds could not be further disconnected. Yeah.
Katie Cash [00:30:54]:
So a lot, you know, I am leadership in place.
Judy [00:30:58]:
Right.
Katie Cash [00:30:58]:
Wants to put a new look on it, but the real systemic issue is, is a much deeper business name.
Judy [00:31:04]:
Yeah. I think in the south we call that lipstick on a pig,
Katie Cash [00:31:10]:
earrings on a moose, whatever you want to call it. So practical advice, survey three folks, your business development lead, marketing lead, managing principal. Ask them who the most valued clients are. So what?
Judy [00:31:27]:
You have the highest value clients.
Katie Cash [00:31:29]:
Okay.
Judy [00:31:29]:
Okay. So spoiler alert. What’s going to quickly come after that is how do we determine highest value clients? Then you start having a conversation about the future of your company. Who is our ideal customer? Well, I don’t know. Who do we make the most money with? Well, I don’t know. Let’s go talk to accounting and finance about that. Who, who are our top 50 accounts that comprise 80% of our revenue? And in smaller firms it might be who are our top three accounts and do we get a hundred percent of their wallet? And if not, why are we going out and looking for strangers when there’s a pot of gold sitting right here?
Katie Cash [00:32:10]:
Yeah.
Judy [00:32:10]:
With a customer that’s already gone through our funnel. It’s just, and it’s frustrating for marketers. But you know what, it’s up to the marketer to explain how this works to the non marketers.
Katie Cash [00:32:22]:
And it might not be a hundred percent of their wallet. Like maybe you get, you know, you get one or two projects a year from them. But the question is, can you get more from them? Are they in a position to hire and award more projects? Whether you’re prime or maybe you Explore a strategic partnership. But the idea is it’s easier to sell to people that have already trusted you, that are already buying from you, that you’re already currently having interactions with, and they’re understanding why your firm is different, better and special than going out and finding a stranger.
Judy [00:32:54]:
And when the marketer treats the funnel like a methodology for influence, that’s easier to explain. I mean, it’s logical, right? This person has been through the funnel. There was once upon a time where they’d never heard of you, somehow became a aware of you, and then somehow they were impressed by you and considered you and others, and then they actually chose you. And a lot of firms think, now my work is done. Are you kidding me? It’s so expensive to get them into the funnel and then nurture them all the way through. Once they’re down there at the bottom of the funnel, buying your services, trusting you, having a great experience, why aren’t you selling them more?
Katie Cash [00:33:39]:
Well, speaking from experience, you and I both come from a firm where we internally joked this is a marketing firm that just happens to do design and construction. Right? Because we would oversell and over promise and under deliver. You don’t ever want that. You want to be able to deliver on what the market is expecting and what those owners are buying. And yes, once you get them in the funnel, like your operations team should be able to build those relationships through daily trust exercise, through confidence of delivery, through the quality of delivery. And you know, there’s a few little activities that you can help them learn how to shape conversations beyond the immediate, you know, punch list items that will set you up for the next project. That whole idea will always be selling.
Judy [00:34:27]:
How many clients have we had that say we won this idiq now we haven’t gotten any work from it.
Katie Cash [00:34:34]:
Oh my gosh. All of them.
Judy [00:34:35]:
All of them. That’s the best example of like failure to expand wallet at the bottom of the funnel. Why would you spend all this money acquiring the client? The cost of client acquisition. Right. You win and then you stop talking to them. I don’t understand this.
Katie Cash [00:34:59]:
Okay, before blows my mind. Okay, so that’s, that’s another tactical activity for anybody who just won and I idiq or master service agreement. That is your license to hunt you some projects. Okay, Your job is not done. Don’t wait for the phone to ring. You gotta go get it. But Judy, before we wrap up today, I know the book talks through the scalable six. We don’t have time to do all of that on the show today, but maybe Just like a high level.
Katie Cash [00:35:29]:
What is the Scalable six? And for our listeners that are starting to think about marketing differently, which pillar should they focus on first?
Judy [00:35:39]:
The Scalable six is our trademark framework that you and I have developed over hundreds of conversations. And where we. And also being in house, where we hired agencies. Yeah. And what we came to realize is that there’s six areas, branding, communications, account based marketing, digital sales, enablement and talent that enable or inhibit a company’s ability to scale. Now, if you’re a company that says, hey, we’re not really looking to scale, we just want to have this much work, we just want to keep our family, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, everyone feels like if you own something, you have to sell it at the end to say that you’re successful. And there are plenty of people that have a really wonderful life, really wonderful businesses where at the end of their career they are fine saying, I don’t have to monetize this.
Judy [00:36:41]:
I got all of my wealth out of the company while I ran it. And that is perfectly fine. But if that is not your goal, then we believe these are the six areas that are going to make a difference in your ability to scale. And if I had to start somewhere, I would start with abm. You know, Katie, this is a hill I will die on.
Katie Cash [00:37:03]:
I know, I know.
Judy [00:37:06]:
Marketing 101, it’s not about you, it’s about your audience. Everything begins with your audience. And this is where marketing should be leading. Not just waiting to be told, you know, how the firm wants to grow, but driving that process so the firm can figure out how it wants to grow. And forcing that conversation and helping the firm get clear on what its priorities are and build everything else to support it. So abm, in a nutshell, it’s basically saying we are going to focus all of our marketing, spend all of our marketing resources on our highest value targets. And they’re comprised of two groups. One is existing customers where we don’t win a hundred percent of their wallet.
Judy [00:38:00]:
And two are audiences that look like our ideal customer that we are not yet doing business with.
Katie Cash [00:38:07]:
Yeah.
Judy [00:38:08]:
And the list is not Thousands, it’s like 50. Our buying audience are small groups. Yeah. We’re not talking to the masses. We are not Coca Cola.
Katie Cash [00:38:19]:
It’s like eight to 10 people that determine our fate.
Judy [00:38:23]:
Right? Yeah, that’s it. And so you cannot go to market in the traditional sense. You have to get really granular about what your ideal customer profile looks like, where they live online and offline, and you need to make sure you show up when they’re looking for you. And that’s a totally different ball game.
Katie Cash [00:38:46]:
Yeah. Than simply responding to proposals. Yeah.
Judy [00:38:49]:
Or just mass advertising. Our industry requires discipline and a whole lot of strategy or you’re going to end up spending a lot of money not even realizing the magnitude of it. I can’t tell you how many times, Katie, we have come into client relationships. One in particular comes to mind where the CEO says, We spent $2 million last year going to trade shows. We don’t have any leads.
Katie Cash [00:39:17]:
Yeah.
Judy [00:39:17]:
How is that? And I’m like, because you didn’t build a system around lead capture. You just sent a bunch of seller doers with no marketing background to a trade show.
Katie Cash [00:39:27]:
That’s why you just, you just gave them carte launch on an expense account. That’s what that looked like.
Judy [00:39:32]:
They all ain’t state.
Katie Cash [00:39:35]:
I think in the South, Judy, you call that a boondoggle.
Judy [00:39:38]:
Right.
Katie Cash [00:39:40]:
That’s not a strategic client acquisition.
Judy [00:39:44]:
I’m all about a good time. But you’ve got to be able to measure that. You know, if you, if you have a strategy that is corporate entertainment. I mean, it is a valid strategy. You still need a system.
Katie Cash [00:39:59]:
Yeah, yeah. Everybody doesn’t get invited on the boat. They gotta find their place on the boat. Yeah, for sure. All right, Judy, as we wrap up today’s show, I have two final questions for you. You, this one is for the marketers. So what is one belief in AEC marketing that you think should retire today?
Judy [00:40:19]:
I believe that we should retire the belief that relationships alone are enough. They still matter, but they’re not the whole system anymore. And firms that rely on relationships alone are going to win their fair share, but they’re going to leave potential on the table. It’s getting harder and harder to win and the margin of victory is getting narrower and narrower. And so again, if you are a local firm that wants to be a regional firm or a regional firm that wants to be a national firm, you’re going to need a lot more in your toolkit.
Katie Cash [00:40:59]:
Well, and I think what I’m seeing, you know, when I come in and help teams prepare for interviews, when we’re doing our competitive analysis, Judy, everybody that shortlisted has a relationship. That’s the reality. And you resume. Yeah, yeah. And the resume. So it’s super, super hard to compete on that. Okay, now for our principals that are listening and thank you for listening to the end, what is something that they should start doing differently if they want strategic marketing in their firm?
Judy [00:41:32]:
You know, they probably need to bring marketing into the conversation earlier. Not just to execute, but to think, to challenge, and to help shape decisions. And even if the person is a junior person, if they’re not exposed to the conversation that you’re having at the leadership table, how are you growing them? How do they become invested in your vision? How do they even begin to bring value? So just bringing them into the conversation. But I’ll say this pretty directly, if you want marketing to perform at a higher level, you have to treat it like a strategic function, not a support role. I was brought in to bring some motivation to a marketing team retreat last year. Katie, I’m not going to name the firm because you know, we don’t do that, but it’s pretty well known firm and about 300 ish designers. And from afar we’ve watched this firm revolve its door of amazing marketers.
Katie Cash [00:42:36]:
Yeah, it happens.
Judy [00:42:37]:
Yeah, yeah. And this firm, you know, they’ve been around a long time, they’re very traditional, they are a household name in the regions that they, they work in. And for the very first time, they brought, brought their marketers together. They really had to fight for the opportunity just to bring everybody together. Like it was so deep deprioritized inside the firm. And I was fortunate enough to be invited to come and speak to them and, and their CMO just looked worn. She was completely defeated. And this is somebody who, you know, five years earlier came from another industry with a lot of energy and a lot of experience in marketing.
Katie Cash [00:43:23]:
Yeah, I’m sure real marketing.
Judy [00:43:25]:
And she couldn’t move that ship. And I just, I find it incredibly frustrating that in 2026, you know, marketers are in a position to justify the merits of advertising. And I get a lot of people who remind me repeatedly, you know, you know, once upon a time it was illegal for architects to market. And I try to be polite, but I remind them that that was 57 years ago.
Katie Cash [00:43:55]:
Well, you know, we also see it too. Marketers wanting to redo a website and the principals are like, we just redid it seven years ago. It’s only 10 years old. It still works. You know, the whole idea and it’s like, yeah, but the whole interface of how people consume information is different. Well, we started today’s conversation because Judy Sparks, the AEC truth teller, wrote a book, Modern Day AEC Marketer. It is available on Amazon. I encourage everyone listening to go scoop it up.
Katie Cash [00:44:27]:
But Judy, if someone finishes the book and does nothing else, what is the one thing that you hope they will actually do? The Modern AEC marketer. There it is. Of course it’s orange. You should be able to see it right on your Amazon. But what is one thing you hope that people will actually adopt from the book?
Judy [00:44:46]:
The one thing of course is allowing marketing to be a strategic function inside your firm. I mean, I think that that’s the whole point. I don’t know any other segment of AEC that pays their people six figures and relegates them to a support role to make books look pretty. I just, I don’t know why that’s the case. It would be different if these were low paid professionals that didn’t have a college education in the area of marketing. But if you have somebody that went to school for marketing and they’re coming into the AEC industry, I encourage you to do everything you can to motivate that person to want to stay. One of the reasons why I wrote this book, Katie, is because I stumbled into this profession 30 years ago. And if you’re a Gen X marketer in aec, you can identify with this.
Judy [00:45:53]:
I didn’t know what I stumbled into. And I thank the Lord every day for leading me here because I love my job so much. And it frustrates me when I see, I mean, I do laugh, but I see a lot of, a lot of marketers in our space poking fun at what the marketers endure every single day. And that’s the darkest, awful side of, of the job. And every job has something. Right?
Katie Cash [00:46:25]:
Right.
Judy [00:46:25]:
But what I don’t think is talked about enough is what an amazing career AEC marketing is. If you compare the career trajectory of AEC marketing to other marketing paths, our people accelerate faster, they get to six figures faster, they’re at the leadership table faster. And we don’t talk enough about that. I mean, I actively, you know this, recruit the very top marketers to be our interns and I try to encourage them to stay, to go get their degree and come back, come back to aec. It can be a wonderful career. I don’t think we talk about that enough.
Katie Cash [00:47:06]:
It is pretty special and I don’t know anybody that goes to school for it because you don’t even know that it’s a thing. I know, I know you, you represent the Gen Xers. I represent the, the elder Millennial group. And we too fell into it. We all trauma bonded together through the transition from Microsoft to publisher to InDesign. But we’re now moving on up and we all love it and love being part of it. So, so thank you, Judy. Thank you for being who you are and the AEC truth teller.
Katie Cash [00:47:35]:
Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for today’s candid conversation and listeners, thank you all for staying till the end. We’ll see you same time next time right here on AEC Marketing for Principals.
Katie Cash [00:47:50]:
AEC Marketing for Principals is presented by Smartigies, the AEC growth consulting firm firm that has been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. The show is hosted by me, Katie Cash, Senior VP at smartigees. I would love to hear from you. If you have a question, a guest request or a topic request for a future episode, send an email or a voice memo to podcastmartigies.com and if you’re looking for past episodes, be sure to visit our podcast [email protected] podcast. We hope you’ll tell your friends and colleagues about our show and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss out on future episodes. Thanks for listening.