Katie [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the AEC Marketing for Principles Cash. This show is designed as a conversation between sales and marketing principles to address trends, challenges, and best practices that are driving growth for professional service firms. Through our collection of discussions with subject matter experts, industry legends, and leaders, we aim to share thoughts and practical tips with our listeners that you can use for growing your AEC brands. Hosted by me, Katie Cash, senior vice president at Smart Agencies, the AEC growth consulting firm that’s been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. Hi, everyone. Katie Cash here. Thank you for tuning in to today’s episode of the AEC Marketing for Principles Cash. Today, I’m excited to be joined with Tara Blakely.
Katie [00:00:53]:
She is the associate director for market transformation and development for the Florida chapter of USGBC, So a long time veteran of the design and construction industry. And, Tara, I’m so excited to have you today and get you to share your story and a little bit of your areas of expertise.
Tara [00:01:11]:
Thank you, Katie. I was thrilled to be apt to be a part of this, and it’s exciting to be able to shed some light into my journey and how it can help others. So I’m excited to be able to contribute today.
Katie [00:01:24]:
Well, let’s go ahead and dive into it. Let’s talk a little bit about that journey. Tell me, how did you get into this industry, and what finally led you to USGBC?
Tara [00:01:34]:
Yeah. So I would say it wasn’t a straight path at all. It was definite like other windy road. I, bit stumbled into it. The market itself was not known to me when I was going to college. So I actually have an art history background and then got my masters in art business at Sotheby’s Institute of Art. So I was over in London, and I actually was exposed to the marketing side through the art side, which was really kinda fascinating. I didn’t even know that was such a thing.
Tara [00:02:08]:
Right? My journey kinda ended there after I got my masters because reality hit me really smack in the face. And being able to live in New York City or London, etcetera, was just not gonna happen at that time for me. I could not necessarily connect the job with a good pay that could make me stay in one of those cities. So I ended up going to Orlando, which at the time was my boyfriend’s place of residence. And now he is my husband, so we’ve been married, let’s see, 14 years. And we’re now going 21 years together. So it’s kinda crazy that journey. Oh, congrats.
Tara [00:02:51]:
Thank you. Thank you. So at the time, I needed to go somewhere besides my, you know, parents’ house. And so my husband and I moved into with each other Katie at the time and came to Orlando. At that time, it was tough to get a job. It was 2,006. The market started Cash. It was a recession coming in in Florida.
Tara [00:03:15]:
And I was trying to figure out a job at that time. It was just like, let’s make some money. So I ended up with a financial firm first in the marketing department. And because of my art background, I felt like marketing was a good path for me because I could be creative. So it kinda jived pretty well. And, yeah, I just, like, continued on. So I went from the finance side to discovering TLC Engineering Solutions, which was my kind of path forward in the a t industry. So I was with them for 14, almost 15 years, became a partner.
Tara [00:03:55]:
And it’s just, like, tremendous what I was able to do at that place, in that industry, and just, like, make it my what I wanted from it. So it’s been a journey, for sure. Not a straight journey, but it’s been a fun journey.
Katie [00:04:11]:
It’s kinda one of those choose your own adventures. It starts out with the arts and and then moves. It sounds very funny to go from arts to to finance, but I guess there’s a fine art to finance too, and then over to engineering and.
Tara [00:04:24]:
Yeah. So I do love the fact that most of my clients, since I was on the engineering side, were architects who are very talented individuals that have that artistic ability. So that in itself was a connector that really kept me thriving in the industry.
Katie [00:04:43]:
And now during your stint at TLC, didn’t you straddle a little bit between marketing and some of the business development and some of the outreach efforts? Tell us a little bit about that part of the journey.
Tara [00:04:56]:
Yeah. So the marketing side is where I was hired first, like, low level marketing assistant for TLC. And I had wonderful mentors within that organization and outside of that organization that provided a path forward for me. It wasn’t just gonna be a marketing coordinator level role. If I kept continuing to improve my abilities, I would be able to continue a path forward with TLC, specifically, was really good about helping individuals especially when you’re young and you’re inferior, helping them understand where to go next kind of thing. And there was individuals that were already leading that way within TLC. So they were mentors to me and were able to kind of bring me through that path. And so I went from marketing assistant all the way through to when I left TLC, I was the national business development rep for TLC and a partner with them.
Tara [00:05:56]:
So it really was amazing, wonderful journey with TLP, and they gave me everything I asked for in regards to if I could prove myself and show them I could do whatever role they thought of me. I was able to continue to walk in that direction. So that was pretty fantastic to be given that opportunity.
Katie [00:06:19]:
As a fellow AEC marketer on my side, it’s always really impressive and gratifying when I see a fellow marketer achieve a partner level status within a technical services firm. All firms are not like TLC. Right? That’s not always marketing driven or see some of the all the benefits of having that type of culture. And I really think that you landed in somewhere that was very special, and you were able to grow and flourish in that environment. And then I know, personally, you took a little bit of break to spend some time with your family, and then you decided to come back to the industry, and that’s what landed you at USGBC. So tell me a little bit about that part when you decided to come back. Yep. The comeback journey, what did that look like?
Tara [00:07:04]:
Well, I 100% agree with you. I’m very fortunate in being able to be with a company that appreciated your efforts and was able to follow through and rewarding you. So I’m very fortunate in this industry. And it goes back to the opportunity of seizing your voice in a work setting and being able to be comfortable with your voice and being heard. And I would say that TLC is one of those entities that does that, and there are lots of firms in the agency industry that do that. You just need to find them. At times, it can be hard. But when you’re in that interview stage, make sure you’re asking these questions of, like, what your journey could be within that organization and where you Cash have some ownership one day possibly.
Tara [00:07:53]:
So I know I’m kinda going backwards a little bit in what you’re talking about, but moving forward so I was at a point in my career where TLC gave me everything, but it was at that point where I was like, is there more for me? I just feel a little burned out. I just wasn’t necessarily as passionate personally in my professional career at that time. So I decided with my family that it was best to take a sabbatical is what I’m calling it right now. It’s about a year. But it was for me to reset and, like, reconnect to my kids. Not that I wasn’t, but I needed to, like, redefine that priority side of my professional career and my personal career. So I was able to do that through that year, and but I always knew I would go back into the workforce. That was never a question.
Tara [00:08:42]:
It was just a matter of when and where. So when I was getting ready to look at what next for me, I knew I wanted a challenge. I knew I wanted to be in something more mission driven. Specifically, I have personal reasons to care about climate change and why. We’re in Florida, and it’s every day here in Florida. We we have to be more resilient. So that personally was something that I was wanting to align with my professional career. Having a funny, like, simple sit down, looked at LinkedIn, and USGBC happened to be hiring a big way, and it was a role this role, market transformation and development for Florida.
Tara [00:09:31]:
So it just seemed like, are they listening to me?
Katie [00:09:35]:
All the stars are aligning.
Tara [00:09:36]:
All the stars are aligning. So I applied, went through the process, and I was super excited about this opportunity because it is something I know because of the engineering side. Obviously, TLP, I think, is taken, like, over 500 projects through lead certification. So it was something known to me over in that organization, but also not known because there’s so much more to unpack from USGBC, and all the resources and the ability to continue to learn were something that were exciting. In August of 2023, I was able to land a job there and it’s been so rewarding already and exciting. But I am definitely out of my comfort zone. The alone has been interesting. I’m really trying to, you know, you think you’re established in your career and then you’re like, okay.
Tara [00:10:30]:
Here you go. Let’s do some new challenge. And definitely, it’s good to be uncomfortable. So I’m enjoying that.
Katie [00:10:37]:
We have a little mantra at the agency. We always say, growth and comfort do not coexist. So if you’re uncomfortable, you’re growing. Right? And it’s opportunity for growth, all in terms of how you frame it. So this season on the podcast, our theme is all around making an impact. And I love this theme because I think it could take so many different directions. Right? We can talk about impact that you have personally through leadership, impact that you have in the industry, certainly through sustainability and other factors like that. But I wanna start maybe more on the personal side since you’ve shared a little bit about your journey and the opportunities given to you.
Katie [00:11:18]:
Tara, why don’t you think back through your career? Oftentimes leadership plays those critical roles in making an impact in our personal professional development. What’s something that stands out in your journey from a leader who inspired you or a principle that you feel like has really inspired how you approach your professional role today?
Tara [00:11:42]:
I would go back to being very fortunate with the place I started, GLP, And being mentored and having that ability to be mentored is so important, especially with your principal leadership. Them taking the time to guide you in your professional career. So I remember that, like it was yesterday, there was multiple people. There wasn’t one person per se, but multiple females, especially, that helped me and lifted me because they helped me with the Cash. So I say that is my principal focus Cash I continue in my career is to be a mentor to others. I think it’s super important, especially now that we are sleep remote working. Like, there’s just, like, that flexibility which is wonderful and we’re able to do that. But I do think there’s the disconnect that happened, unfortunately, because you might be remote.
Tara [00:12:40]:
And how do the younger workforce be able to tap into that mentor side. Because back in the day, we are all in the office and we had a lot of face time with folks, and you’re able to kinda establish yourself there. Virtually, it’s just not as easy to do that. So I do personally take that on as a big focus for myself to be able to provide mentorship, provide a trust factor out there, not only internally with the people I work with, but externally with the marketing folks that I interact with, the business development folks I interact with. And just trying to help them kinda through those being able to be engaged, I guess, I should say, in a capacity that is mentoring.
Katie [00:13:28]:
I think you’re right. Mentorship does drive a lot of successful individuals, and you’ve gotta have the right partner for that. Right? And everybody doesn’t receive the mentorship the same way. And I often hear a lot of our clients, and I know some of our listeners have shared this, where they’ve got senior leadership that’s got great experience and, like, a wealth of expertise that that they would love to share. They just don’t know how to connect with the younger generations, and you kinda touched on it. Part of it is this technology bit of we’re not physically sitting together and nobody wants to go to lunch together because we’re just trying to get the work done so I can go spend time with my friends and family. A little bit different work culture these days, but what has been maybe some things that you have found to be successful at forging that mentor mentee partnership and kind of that, I think you mentioned that the trust alliance there so that you can share with them. And it’s it’s perceived as valuable to them.
Katie [00:14:22]:
I think that’s another challenge is we don’t just wanna be harping on the younger generations here, but we want to infuse some knowledge and help them along the way.
Tara [00:14:31]:
And there’s so much to learn from them too. Because to be honest, I give them kudos for saying what? My day is gonna end at 5 and I have a life outside of work. And I feel Katie when I was growing up in the workforce at 20 something, I didn’t understand those lines and those boundaries.
Katie [00:14:51]:
Oh, no. I would never say that. I spent, like, 24 hours straight at the office. I didn’t go home or shower during the sales quarterly meetings. Like, I was just there.
Tara [00:15:00]:
Exactly. So, like, I’m proud of this new workforce coming in and saying, you know what? My personal faith means a lot to me, and I will be a better employee if I get that time. And so I’m taking note of what they’re saying because I think it’s gonna help me. Right? Like, why was I burnt out? Because I probably didn’t have those clear lines of delineation. So I think that’s part of it. Like, you going back to you have to have a, like, a natural fit. Just like this development. You can’t force the relationship that’s not organically gonna connect in that way.
Tara [00:15:38]:
Same thing with mentoring. You can’t force anything. You have to, like, naturally be available in my mind. If you want to be a mentor, proceed to being available because for a mentee to come and reach out to you, you can’t just, like, how do I say this? I’m maybe stumbling a little bit here.
Katie [00:16:00]:
So I think where you’re going is when you wanna be a mentor and you’ve got a mentee that’s reaching out and wanting to connect, you’ve gotta be available. You’ve gotta prioritize that connection.
Tara [00:16:11]:
Yeah. Prioritize it because this is your opportunity to help the workforce. That’s the other thing is I’ve noticed because I went through the recession, we had a lot of people my age lead the industry.
Katie [00:16:26]:
Yeah.
Tara [00:16:27]:
So now here we are in that time of life, in your professional career where it’s time to give back. And unfortunately, there’s not as many of us of us out there. And so there’s this huge gap, unfortunately, of access to those folks in the 40 to 50 year old leadership that are available to help with the young workforce. And so I think that is a big issue in the a t industry. And I have time and time again, I’ve talked to folks from engineering side, from the construction side. They’re all talking about how we have young workforce, they have no one to mentor. And the people that do are still performing, having to give work product out, And so it’s really hard for them to take a moment to be that mentor. So it’s a huge issue, I would say, in our industry right now.
Katie [00:17:29]:
I think a lot of people sign up with the best intentions, but they’re like you mentioned, they’re on the hook for delivering and the the doing of the work is always gonna come first. So when they’re in that position, maybe they might not be in the most agreeable mindset. So they might be a little blunt and curt and not very thoughtful with their words, or they might just brush it off. And then the partner on the other end of the table doesn’t feel like they’re invested in them. And then they, worst case scenario, they change positions, right, and they go somewhere else or they leave us. Right. Because it this is a systemic issue that the industry faces is this, the the lack of interest in the fields coming up and sustaining the workforce moving forward to meet the demand. I mean, you’re in Florida.
Katie [00:18:12]:
I just got back from vacation down there, and it’s like every time I go, there’s more and more hotels. There’s more and more mixed use. I was in a part with my family with lots of senior living communities, and the active adult got pickleballed to death with all those communities in South Florida.
Tara [00:18:27]:
We’re freaking gone.
Katie [00:18:29]:
You know? It’s so funny. But there’s lots of opportunities in the industry. And does that mean that the older generations are gonna just have to stay in there and work longer and push through, or is there an opportunity to let some of the younger generations make a name for themselves and and move in up and?
Tara [00:18:46]:
Grow quicker than we Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think we’re at that kinda pinnacle right now, and there’s some young leaders out there that are fully capable, but they need to be recognized and found. Like, they’re still Katie lost in the group because they’re not getting that time with someone that could help them push further, I guess. Yeah. So it’s an interesting time right now for sure. And like you said, the workforce doesn’t know the ABC industry much. Like, part of my new role with USGBC has been a lot of that focus.
Tara [00:19:27]:
And, thankfully, here in Florida, we have a lot of programs that are based in sustainability or focused in sustainability like u f like USF, University of Tampa. Mhmm. So they’re and UCF, of course, that’s right down the street from me. They have these wonderful programs that are environmental studies, sustainably focused. And so, we need to be able to do a better job connecting the dots for them and being able to be out there visiting those campuses to say, hey. There’s a career that you can have, a really wonderful career you can have in the architectural engineering, construction industry. You don’t have to be an architect. You don’t have to be an engineer.
Tara [00:20:13]:
So that’s another piece
Katie [00:20:15]:
of it. Well, and I think I got schooled recently talking with another architectural client of mine. She was like, I went to school to be an architect, but I’m not a designer. And 90% of the architectural profession is not designers. We’re project managers. We do this, that, and the other. And there’s a wealth of opportunity in our space. Well, you mentioned that I was a marketing major.
Katie [00:20:37]:
I had no idea that you could do marketing for a construction firm. No idea that even existed. I fell into the industry, caught the bug, loved it, and could never think of doing anything else. I get super excited seeing job site signage. It’s kind of like my Super Bowl ad. I see new job site signage go up. I get all excited about that. So I do wanna take a little bit of time and talk about USGBC and kind of what you’re doing there.
Katie [00:21:01]:
I think most of our listeners are well educated and quite familiar with the typical thought of what USGBC is. Right? We automatically go to the certification program and having their staff lead accredited and what all that looks like. But you started to touch on some of the other resources and some of the other connection points and really what your position is all about. And so I’d like for you to maybe share a little bit about that.
Tara [00:21:27]:
Yeah. Thank you, Katie. So with USGBC, it’s a organization that’s been around for 30 years. Like you said, everyone knows about certification program that is developed and getting credential. So that has been established for a long time. And when I joined the organization, this is also a part of my learning journey within the industry and but with this organization specifically is they have so much more resources outside of lead that I didn’t even know about. And so that is part of my kind of hat that I’m wearing, especially in Florida, is being able to tap into the tools and resources that USGBC offer and being able to bring that to the client side, whether it’s the architects, the owners, etcetera. But we have to do a better job elevating what the resources are through USGBC.
Tara [00:22:26]:
Lead is a wonderful Katie system that was developed, and now we’re going into lead version 5. So hold on to your bootstraps Cash they say. Like, the marketplace has pushed us this way, and it’s good. But because of the Paris agreement, we have to be able to have a rating system that is aligned with the Paris agreement. And so lead version 5 is doing that. It will be rolled out in 2025. We’re really excited. Right now, it’s public comment.
Tara [00:22:59]:
So this is your opportunity if you are in the industry to be able to provide commentary to what we’re trying to achieve with the new Katie system. So that ends, I think it’s May 3rd. Please go online to usubc.org, and you’ll find under lead version 5, the public comment section. We listen and respond to every comment. So make sure if you have a voice and an opinion of what we’re doing here, express it. The other part of it that has been wonderful and fascinating is because I’m in the Florida market and focused on the Florida market, lead for Katie is a certification for cities and communities out there that is been a big growth sector for USGBC. So what that is is a city, a municipality, a county can take their city, etcetera, through registration and be able to apply a lot of the sustainable equity and resiliency initiatives through this certification process to their community. This has been huge in Florida.
Tara [00:24:14]:
We actually have 24 certified city, county, and municipalities. That is the most in the world that are here in Florida. So it’s an amazing wonderful time for Florida to be on the map that way. We have another 20 registered, and this is something that I wasn’t even in the caliber of understanding before I joined USGBC. It’s just not known out there. Right? So this is something I’m trying to elevate even more, but these cities and counties and municipalities, they’re taking it upon themselves to be able to have control of what they’re doing and what they’re providing for their stakeholders, especially on the resiliency side since we’re surrounded by water pretty much. Right? We have to be able to understand how to mitigate what’s to come with climate change. And so that has been a huge market that has grown for us.
Tara [00:25:13]:
And, of course, as we know, being marketing professionals, the city, county, municipalities, everyone are changing their regulations, their standards, and their codes because they’re going to push for a better, purposeful way to live, then it’s gonna affect us all in a positive way. Right? Like, it’s gonna trickle into our everyday for development. So it’s really exciting time.
Katie [00:25:39]:
That is super exciting, Tara. I had no idea that that was even a thing. I’ve seen statements on behalf of cities talking about I think there’s, like, a green city’s challenge or some comments like that, but not about, yeah, those formal programs. So that’s super
Tara [00:25:54]:
Yeah. So with USGBC providing this formal program, and it’s a prescription to be able to apply it. It it’s not easy. It’s a pretty heavy lift, but what’s happening in these this realm is they’re hiring directors of sustainability and folks to be able to carry it forward within their organization. And then as a consultant out there in the world, you can help them whether it’s for storm water planning or for how their buildings themselves are efficient, etcetera. There’s so many different layers to it, and it’s been awesome to be able to see that grow. And again, for them to take it upon themselves to do better. So it really is an exciting time, and I implore everyone to check it out because it is a new way for government entities to be able to take matters in their own hand.
Katie [00:26:51]:
Yeah. Talk about making an impact. I mean, that for sure is a way to do that. Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned the comment section on the USGBC website. And I’m gonna ask you a a question. And if you’re not prepared to answer it, you can say, Katie, we’ll skip it.
Katie [00:27:09]:
But as a marketer, I know a lot of firms often leverage the number of LEED accredited professionals that they have or their most recent LEED certified project, whether it’s platinum, bronze, over anything in between, as a way to showcase what their firm has done in in terms of making an impact. And they often use it in their marketing materials. But one of the big hurdles we often find clients have is trying to find a way to connect that particular certification to the so what. Right? So they try to talk about, well, this is the 1st student center to achieve LEED Platinum. This is the largest warehouse. They try to quantify it in some way to add context to it. So, Tara, what I love about your story is that your journey is not too dissimilar to to others. Right? Because it just kinda goes around the wheel in all different places, but you did some time in marketing.
Katie [00:28:06]:
You did some time in business development. You’re now on the side with USGBC that’s really helping and advocating for the industry as a whole. But one of the pieces that I think you have some, what we call, connective tissue, that’s the term we use here at Smart AGs, do you bring all of this together? And so maybe talk a little bit about how firms that have a sustainable mission or an element of their culture, What’s the best way to leverage that as they start going about their marketing and communications and sales initiatives?
Tara [00:28:39]:
And there’s so many paths in which I could answer this. Okay. As a previous marketing business development person on the consulting side. Right? Like, I think at the end of the day is who’s your client and do they truly care about this? Is this part of their values? And if it is, and it’s a part of your values, don’t you wanna align those values together? And sustainability, to me Cash been one of those things that had been thrown around out there. Oh, yeah. We’ve done some lead projects. We’re good. We can check this box.
Tara [00:29:13]:
It’s not about checking the box then. We’re past that. We have to do better in this industry. And so it’s the firms that are being hired and elevated are the firms that truly have it for their culture. In my opinion, that will continue to excel because they’re living and breathing it in certain ways. And that that doesn’t mean I’m saying go compost. I’m saying they’re aligning their mission to their client’s missions too out there. Right? I think there’s this interesting it’s not just like we have done and just prescription about, like, checking the box of 300 lead projects, then we’re your people.
Tara [00:29:53]:
You have the other thing clients need to know solutions. Right? Like and they need their advocates. And you have to be able to show that as well. And thankfully, USGBC has provided with lead that avenue to be an advocate to make your building better. So I think that is the key right there. At the end of the day, we wanna produce building that are gonna last.
Katie [00:30:21]:
So we are coming up on time a little bit. What do you want the biggest takeaway, I guess, from our chat to be today, Tara?
Tara [00:30:30]:
I think what my journey has been so great about joining USGBC and being able to see this positive impact that’s happening across the country in regards to we are over and beyond the whole climate change piece. We’re just about being able to address some really big problems that I wasn’t even kinda understanding. I think even when I was with t l b until I’ve been over at USGBC. And one of those things is equity. So I think it’s really interesting how USGBP had seen that we have to make a more positive impact on equity, and USGBC has been very focused on. And need version 5 Cash a path specifically on this. And it’s about how our society will not have a healthy path forward if we don’t address major challenges like affordable housing and just cost of living and being able to be raising awareness that we need to be more inclusive, and that include the building types and just being able to drive performance in a bigger scale. It’s been very eye opening to that side of the industry.
Tara [00:32:03]:
But the equity side has been part of where the version 5 is very focused on improving of quality of life and that the building can be driving that. The buildings in which we live, right, are driving us to do better. I think through COVID and other things, those issues were brought to the surface in a big way. And now we have this ability to have lead version 5 come out and help with elevating some of these issues so that we have healthier building. And that’s really an awesome thing that I’d like to be a part and continue to raise the flag in women out there in the market.
Katie [00:32:49]:
Well, that is certainly inspiring and fitting of our theme for this season of making an impact. I think what you shared here, all of our listeners should be inspired to do better. Words right here from Tara. Do better. Do more than check the box. And we are all in this one industry together, one society together, one big world together facing climate change, climate resiliency. And a lot of things we can mitigate, a lot of things we can plan for, and a lot of things we can change just based on our physical environment because the impact that our industry has on the world around us and the quality of life, like you just mentioned. So Right.
Katie [00:33:32]:
Tara, I wish we could sit here and talk all day, but I know you’ve got a day job, and our listeners are probably done with their commute and are ready to get on with their day. For those that are interested and wanna learn more, I think you mentioned that usgbcdot org was the best place to go and certainly to check out the lead v five, get your comments in, share that there. But what’s the best way for people to to connect with you and maybe explore becoming a mentee that you might be able to talk to and give back to or just to connect on a general level? What’s that best way?
Tara [00:34:01]:
LinkedIn is the best avenue to reach out to me. I am on it constantly. It’s just a part of my day job of having content out there. So please reach out to me via link and message me, and I would love to connect. I implore you all to check out what’s going on at usgbt.org. There is so much information out there. There are free webinars as well to be able to educate yourself in what’s happening in this new high performance building market and really excited about what’s to come. So jump on board and be a part of it.
Katie [00:34:41]:
Perfect. Thank you everybody for listening today. Again, we’ve been talking with Tara Blakely from USGBC. She is in the Florida chapter. So if you’re in Central Florida area, be sure to connect with her, look her up, and know that USGBC is a resource to us all. AEC Marketing for Principles is presented by SmartEgies, the AEC growth consulting firm that has been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. The show is hosted by me, Katie Cash, senior VP at Smartages. I would love to hear from you.
Katie [00:35:16]:
If you have a question, a guest request, or a topic request for a future episode, send an email or a voice memo to podcast at smartergies.com. And if you’re looking for past episodes, be sure to visit our podcast page at smartergiesdot com Cash podcast. We hope you’ll tell your friends and colleagues about our show and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss out on future episodes. Thanks for listening.