Katie Cash [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the AEC Marketing for Principles podcast. This show is designed as a conversation between sales and marketing principals to address trends, challenges and best practices that are driving growth for professional service firms. Through our collection of discussions with subject matter experts, industry legends and leaders, we aim to share thoughts and practical tips with our listeners and that you can use for growing your AEC brands. Hosted by me, Katie Cash, senior Vice President at smartigies, the AEC growth consulting firm that’s been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to AEC Marketing for Principals. This is the podcast where we explore ideas, we talk to different people, and we talk through strategies that are helping to shape growth across the ever growing built environment. You all know me.
Katie Cash [00:00:59]:
I’m your host, Katie Cash, and we are in the middle of a new season that we are calling Change Makers. And this season we’re going to be talking to leaders and innovators across the space that are driving innovation across design, construction, project delivery. And today’s guest is someone that’s really helping to shape the future of our industry, and that is starting in the classroom. So today I’m joined by Dr. Reichert, who is the chair for the School of Building Construction at Georgia Tech. Go Jackets. Um, and if you’ve been following smartigies, you know that we’ve really enjoyed a strong partnership with Georgia Tech through the years. So we’re really excited to learn from Dr.
Katie Cash [00:01:38]:
Reicher and what the school is doing in the immediate to long term future and how the next generation of AEC professionals are going to be prepared to lead. So with that, let’s just dive right in. Dr. Reicher, let’s start with where Georgia Tech School of Building Construction stands today. And we know it has a really strong reputation for technical rigor, but maybe, you know, you’re coming in with a fresh perspective. Maybe talk a little bit about where the school is today and how you see that in the broader ecosystem.
Dr. Reichert [00:02:11]:
Yeah. Thank you for having me here on this podcast. I’m excited to have moved a little bit further south. I know you did go jackets for 20 years. I heard. Let’s go hokies. So that is my background. I have grown up there kind of academically here in the U.S.
Dr. Reichert [00:02:28]:
i’ve been 30 years in academia, but 20 years at Virginia Tech have definitely shaped my perception of how construction education has changed and is moving in the US And I think at Georgia Tech, we have a very interesting mix of talent and opportunity that I hope to harness in the next coming years. So to give you, you were asking me where Georgia Tech stands. And that’s an interesting perspective because Georgia Tech is very much known for its rigor, for its research prowess and in construction, they kind of made a mistake a decade ago or a little bit more and maybe less a mistake, a miscalculation of where we will move with construction education. And they decided to abandon undergraduate education and just go towards high tech graduate research and graduate. And that was a miscalculation on coming out of a recession that probably had different signs but had actually very good ingredients for change also in the industry. And I was lucky enough to be at Virginia Tech back then and where we harnessed that momentum and grew an undergraduate program to a very large scale and powerhouse output for the industry. The challenge, what we have at Georgia Tech is that industry removed themselves from that graduate high end education side. And when they came and they brought back the degree a few years ago, industry is waiting for us now what, what we are doing.
Dr. Reichert [00:04:06]:
And I think it’s a very exciting moment because we are at a time we can have a lot of momentum in the industry and need for, for change. I often said we are building how we built 50 years, 100 years even ago for, for the long. And that has been starting to change. And what research did, let’s say 20 years ago, I can give you an example. It was BIM as the big word. But where it really has the foot in the industry now, it took 10, 15 years to actually morph into that market. And we see something much faster moving now. And that’s the opportunity that Georgia Tech really has the potential to harness and be a leader and thought leader already on the undergraduate program.
Dr. Reichert [00:04:56]:
Because as you said, we want to funnel our talent into the industry as fast as possible. And that needs to happen through undergraduate education. That is cutting edge already then.
Katie Cash [00:05:07]:
Well, you know, we’ve. In the design and construction space. I feel like for a long time now, at least the majority of my professional career, we’ve been balancing this challenge of having too much people, you know, too many people, not enough work. Too much work, not enough people. And then the recession hit and I think we’ve been in a deficit in terms of staffing and resources ever since then. And every firm across the design and construction space that I speak to is just so, so thirsty for new hires. Right. And really hoping that the next generation finds passion in the built environment and explores education through it.
Katie Cash [00:05:45]:
Because it’s not something you can just, you know, walk on the job site one day and fully, you know, how A building program comes together. So it’s really important the work that you all are doing at Georgia Tech and really excited to hear maybe a little bit about how your current leadership with the school, kind of what the next chapter might look like as you look at maybe new ways to embrace evolving technology. I have to imagine there’s some implication of AI in the construction programming that you guys are doing in the classroom and maybe how you’re utilizing data. You know, a lot of the BIM models is really based on making educated decisions all around data. And then of course, I think Georgia Tech leads in understanding really the impact of sustainability as it reflects in the, in the building environment. So would love to maybe pick your brain a little bit about how you see the program evolving to speak to some of the new, new things shaping our industry that are becoming part of our.
Dr. Reichert [00:06:43]:
Yeah, that is exactly as you mentioned and ties into what I left off in the previous introduction, the current change specifically I think through AI and the data inquiries that we can do with that. So BIM has never been fully developed, even though absorbed in the market. Then it was researched and it was actually much more research. What we see today as what we call digital twins, where we really query a digital twin of how the real building behaves. And so it’s funny that we even had to coin a new term because technically that’s what the researchers 20 years were dreaming of, what we call a digital twin. And then the industry absorbed the term BIM and redefined it as 3D modeling, collision detection and was not really what we meant with information modeling. And so that’s so fascinating that the technology has now entered the market so fast that we see takers two years down the road. Some companies actually startups that do it faster than we can react in academia.
Dr. Reichert [00:07:50]:
And that’s really a fun time to beat academia that we’re not in this ivory tower where we’re doing what will be 20 years down the road, but we can be part of the change making. And I think that’s where our students with the high tech talent that they come in. And so we don’t have the numbers right now that other big construction programs have, but the talent that we get in is so, so eager to put their technology skills right to the market and right into practice. And that’s what we are trying to do with our undergraduate curriculum that will see further changes. So when they brought the degree back three years ago, it was to start it again, but they didn’t implement all the changes. It was technology focused. But I Think we can now make it really hands on with that are engaging with us. And that’s also how we grew the talent pipeline.
Dr. Reichert [00:08:47]:
So the graduation numbers that we need.
Katie Cash [00:08:50]:
I have to imagine, you know, you alluded to it a little bit there. Academia is not known for being super aggressive in terms of change adoption. And when we’re in a pace of technology adoption like we are right now, I imagine it is a little bit hard in the classroom to kind of keep that innovative approach to education and you know, everything that Georgia Tech stands for when the technology is evolving faster than the educational programming. So how, how is your team maybe partnering with industry to understand what firms are doing today so that you can have that reflected in the classroom, whether it’s just through partnerships and guest lecturing or job shadowing. What does that really look like?
Dr. Reichert [00:09:34]:
It’s a good point to, to lead over to. So the academia is kind of struggling, straddling the accreditation requirements. That means what we exactly teach, how we measure that we teach it correctly and how we deliver that. And interestingly enough, we had this struggle at Virginia Tech equally. And what I learned in the process and what I will implement in our modifications that we make to the undergraduate curriculum is to build in the flexibility to be more reactive to changes in the market without being prescriptive of them in the class delivery model in the syllabus. Let me give you an example of that. So there is a model that we used that I’m working currently with our faculty to bring in real world projects into the classroom as a training bed. And so after a first year foundation of terminology and the technology terms that they need to know, we dive right into a project where they become subcontractors.
Dr. Reichert [00:10:39]:
And that is a project that is coming from the industry that has been built where we have all the specifications, a collaborator in the classroom to show them on how they delivered the project and how they planned for it and designed it. And in the first iteration, in the second year when they hit such a project, they do this as a concrete steel sub. So it’s easier, it’s more tangible than the wood concrete is, it’s blocks. Usually it’s easier to model, to calculate, but they go through the process of developing that skill on a real project. So after this year they have seen a full project on, yes as a subcontractor with the concrete and steel side, but how it merges into the bigger field. And then in the second iteration of that, so there are three iterations that we plan to implement for that in their third year, they become now technical subcontractors. So MEPs, the mechanical, electrical, plumbing groups. And you need much more knowledge for it, much more integration.
Dr. Reichert [00:11:38]:
But you take the skills from the preview project, but apply it now to another project coming from the industry, a new one. So let’s say the first one was an office building, the next one is a warehouse or anything like that. And in the last year, in the third iteration, they become the channel contractors. And if you know, and you probably know our construction industry very well, it’s a people’s business. We build it for people, with people, for people that then live in there and people who operate. And so it is the important thing that you do this with a real project where you communicate between the partners, the people that built this project. And then that’s what we replicate in the classroom. So the second year students talk to the fourth year students.
Dr. Reichert [00:12:27]:
What do you need from us? And how do we integrate our first ideas and how we would do concrete into your larger project? And the nice thing about a curriculum like this is you can adopt and adjust projects that are current and bring them. Yeah, so you can bring a data center. Yeah, there’s a new data center that now they built with geothermal ones. Okay, let’s bring that in. So that is a way to keep change that happens in the industry and translate it quickly into the classroom. And the students come out with a tool set of three projects, of three different real world projects where companies helped us to develop and deliver that. And I think they hit the ground running with. It was a very successful model at Virginia Tech.
Dr. Reichert [00:13:15]:
And I think it would be even more so successful with the talent that we have at Georgia Tech.
Katie Cash [00:13:19]:
I think that sounds really, really interesting and great. You know, we work with a lot of firms across design and construction. My agency, Smartigees, and we hear about the struggles with some of the younger talent that they have, you know, within their organizations in that, you know, they can be really, really great behind a computer screen. Dr. Reicher, you know, they’re, they’re super efficient at, you know, doing their drawings and details and working on the digital twin modeling, as you call it. But the communication with the other project team members, you know, whether it’s they’re intimidated or they’re just not sure, they just don’t have the soft skills to have those conversations. That is always a really big friction point. And it happens within organization.
Katie Cash [00:14:05]:
So it’s, you know, the EIT trying to talk to his PE or the, you know, the field engineer that’s trying to talk to the project Manager on the construction side. And then it’s also trying to communicate to external parties as well. Whether it’s the subcontractors or the suppliers or the other design partners, it just becomes a really, really hard challenge for them. So I love that your curriculum takes into account some of the technical things they need to know. You know, obviously the importance of construction, sequencing and planning, but also realizing that this is very much a people driven business and it’s a team sport and you need all these different players to really make a project successful. And the only way that you get, I think, confident and competent in having some of those hard conversations is just to practice it. And what better way to do it than in academics before you’re really up against, you know, maybe a high risk project and your, you know, professional reputation is on, on the line. I’m curious, in those project scenarios, are your building construction students, are they collaborating with like the architecture and engineering students? Like is it a cross campus type of project or is it siloed?
Dr. Reichert [00:15:14]:
That was an option that we had when the classes were small at Virginia Tech where we did that. We could theoretically do this right now at Georgia Tech as well because our classes are still small. We have a demand and a at the task to grow. And I have seen that what, what we, what we need to change when we grow Virginia Tech, we had suddenly 120 students per year in the classroom instead of 20. You need to deliver, we try to deliver the same, but you, you need to have a slightly different approach. So integration across disciplines in majors is much more complicated. There we do that as an exercise with extracurricular and sometimes elective courses where they engage across the aisle. There is so much in timeliness with delivering of curriculum that has a dependency on another major that operates on a different timescale that would actually hinder that.
Dr. Reichert [00:16:13]:
So I would say yes, we work across the aisle, but more with the industry relationship people. So we bring architects in as well that worked at this project. Not so much the architecture students because there would be too much dependency. But you hit on a point. Before that, I wanted to also emphasize the people skill side. The soft skill side, essential in construction hasn’t been implemented the Georgia Tech yet because we are all geeks here. But it’s important that we communicate our technology, our love. And so we will definitely bring a soft skills course back into the curriculum.
Dr. Reichert [00:16:56]:
So you see, there will be several changes to be made just to better deliver the context of technology that we try to implement. And the soft skill already starts in the first year. When we try to get our students ready for internships, because there is. How do you write and how do you communicate, even in an email? It’s a skill that you need to train. And then how you do that in a terminology. And as an academic and as a researcher, I’m very often frustrated with marketing efforts that just can blurt out things that are simply not right. And so having tools and helping them to understand how AI generated knowledge needs to be questioned at the same time then sold better that it’s actually scientifically and technically sound. That will be the thing where I think high tech graduates set themselves apart from.
Dr. Reichert [00:17:56]:
I shouldn’t call it snake oil salesman, but there is something out there. Yeah, I mean, Currently there are 3D printing technology technologies, enterprises that just say things that are not true and that are buzzwords. And I don’t want us to be destroying this really good momentum of technology change by promising something that is not delivered because we know what it is. So that all comes together in people skills and communication. How do you sell the value of technology, the value of the change? And I think our students will hit the ground running there.
Katie Cash [00:18:36]:
I think it’s great. I really do think the focus on helping them sharpen up their soft skills is just a really great example of how you and your team at Georgia Tech are preparing students to be confidently ready for the workforce, whether it’s an internship or something straight out of once they achieve their undergraduate. On the topic of industry partners, you mentioned during these projects, you know, you might not be working with the architecture students, but you’re working with maybe the architect that was part of the True Blue project. What are some ways, Dr. Reicher, for industry partners to get involved or support what you and your team are trying to do with this reimagining the school of building construction?
Dr. Reichert [00:19:22]:
Well, as I said before, construction is a relationship people business. And so you need to start relationships with academics and with. With. With ent most intense engagement is when you have access or if you’re sitting on our board, we have an industry advisory board. But we have a very selective nomination process now in place so that we can diversify this board and get really different voices instead of just general contractors. And so that of course, also limits the access to the number of industry folks that that actually approaches. And I’ve been just blown away of how receptive the industry community here in Atlanta is to Georgia Tech. And so I’m riding a wave of hype and joy here.
Dr. Reichert [00:20:13]:
That’s really good. And so I have almost daily weekly people Coming up and hey, how can we get engaged? And so I even need to temper that a bit. Yep. Let’s talk about where it’s most meaningful. So but to explain that our board members, they help us to stage and develop those curriculums and also some of the changes that we make in the classroom, that doesn’t mean that they are always the ones delivering projects and helping us with that. They help us facilitate and identify people who do that. And so having a communication open and conversation. Then of course there is the mix of philanthropic connection of alumni.
Dr. Reichert [00:20:55]:
And then at the same time also we have an affiliates program that is a partnership program where companies get some perks with evenings in the lobby and career fair access directly without having to sign up for it. But in the long run it’s probably just talked about career fairs. They are a networking exercise. They are not just for finding the jobs. They are being in front of our students telling them what happens in their companies. And so we currently have just once a year a career fair. But we are planning to do this twice a year. And it is true that very often in fall, most of the as you said before, the companies are so desperate they’re making internship offers two, three weeks, four weeks, students I know for the next summer.
Dr. Reichert [00:21:47]:
And we historically had that internship discussion in the spring, in the spring of career fairs. But the question now is why do you come back for the spring career fair if we made already the internship offers in the fall career fair? And the answer is networking. We ask our students still to go to career fairs because you learn it and these opportunities where they have, we don’t have the numbers yet, but we currently have probably in the range of 70 companies. But Virginia Tech, Auburn, Clemson, they have many more. I know Virginia Tech limits it to 200. When later in your career do you have access to 200 companies and can talk what they do? Because your first employer will not be your last employer. And the same is in the other direction. So employers should use these career fairs.
Dr. Reichert [00:22:40]:
Send your alumni network. We have alumni networking event after career fairs whether mix and mingle with students. And yes, maybe it’s not their first internship that stays being successful with a single company. In the end, the industry is small again too. The 200 companies I mentioned 500. But at some point when you have found your niche, you rotate between companies that know each other. And so I think this is a way to engage. And then of course in terms of guest lectures, it’s always interesting to hear cutting edge things that they try.
Dr. Reichert [00:23:16]:
And that’s what we try to entertain as well. So if you have something that is outside the box, not something off the shelf, very common, that’s when you probably get the better ear in our classroom because we want to deliver this difference in the classroom.
Katie Cash [00:23:31]:
I like that. And you’re right, it is. You know, your network building today pays off long into the future on both sides of the table. So really, really good ideas there of how to get.
Dr. Reichert [00:23:42]:
And let’s not forget the. So I know this is much more about change making. And there is also the reality with recruiting in academia for us, for the students. So Georgia Tech is very competitive and even if we ramp up application numbers, we very often do not get the same numbers of admissions that we would like to have. And there is a challenge with Georgia Tech being so technical that if you make it that the current admission model with the higher math readiness that would allow you to just go into any engineering field is not totally comparable to the perfect student for construction who is much more entrepreneurial. And this people skills side, not saying that you can have both, but it’s of course a difference. And so almost across all our peer institutions we have talked this in peer discussions. Very often it is that on campus we find transfer students and they just discover construction in their first year because we put our students with them, put them in contact with our industry and that’s where they come.
Dr. Reichert [00:24:52]:
So if you show up for our students there, they are just blown away and talk to their peers, hey, I already have my internship and I talked to the CEO who told me this is how this thing works. And that’s so fundamentally different to the classic engineering degrees or other degrees that we have. I don’t think any other major has so much industry involvement. And I think that’s something that we recruit 50% of our students on campus as transfer students to give a basic idea that is, I may have derailed your train of thought here, but we were talking about what can, how can they engage, right? And so it’s not just for them to be scoring so many employees that they can get by being on campus. We may get more students that made and entered the industry. And so I think it’s a win win for both of us.
Katie Cash [00:25:50]:
Well, and when I look, when I think about it, Atlanta has a lot of construction firms here. Locally, you know, we’ve got just about all of the big players, you know, those blue chip, multi billion dollar companies. But then we’ve also got some other regional players and you know, a lot of specialty contractors. Georgia, you know, continues to be One of the, I think, hottest markets in terms of economic development related to real estate development in the country. And so a lot of firms are here. And so it’s, it’s great for you to have an opportunity. I could just imagine as a student, I might only know some of the big names, right. You know, I might know Brassfield and Gorey, I might know Turner or J.
Katie Cash [00:26:33]:
Dunn, those, those big firms. But when you dial into it, maybe through those career fairs or through people just being on campus and pushing into the classroom, you get exposure to the wide variety of employment opportunities because, you know, everybody’s not cut out to work at a really large firm. You know, they might want to work for a smaller GC that, you know, works locally and does community work versus the mega jobs, or maybe not. So I think that’s really great advice for our listeners to find a way to, you know, partner with academia in different levels. You’ve got the career fairs from recruitment, you’ve got in classroom, you’ve got just being on campus, you’ve got the alumni networks, all different, different ways to be present and kind of make some of those investments in people and relationships that will work long into the future.
Dr. Reichert [00:27:21]:
And that’s exactly what we try to reflect on the industry advisory board as well. So that’s why it’s not just the big companies there. We have consultants, we have architectural engineers or specialty contractors, small contractors, young contractors even. Yeah, entrepreneurial folks. And they help us to gauge that we are open to all of those opportunities.
Katie Cash [00:27:44]:
Well, and I do think, just speaking from experience, you know, Judy, our founder and CEO at Smarter G’s, she spends some time at Georgia Tech as an adjunct professor. So she teaches a course, I think every other year. And she just did one for the School of Building Construction. It was really about marketing and communications. And those students are different. You know, when I was in college, I won’t say how long ago it was, but my peer group wasn’t starting their own companies. You know, they weren’t coming out, you know, of their junior year with a full time offer for once they graduate. Like it’s a much different, I think, talent pool, just kind of competitive landscape.
Katie Cash [00:28:23]:
And the more exposure your organization might have with the students, I think the better opportunity you have at least for consideration of them understanding what might be out there before they make those decisions. Because they were certainly making them much sooner than I was as an undergrad.
Dr. Reichert [00:28:38]:
Yeah, and you make a good point here. What SmartRiches was contributing here is the marketing side. How do we sell? And Market technology that it comes across as sincere and actually solving the problem. So this is where our graduate programs tries to move as well. We’re actually lacking a really powerhouse business construction master’s program that we sometimes cater to career changers who have found a home in construction but have no education there. So there’s the looking for master’s programs rather than going into a full undergrad that devalues the master, actually. And so I know it helps the industry to recruit more talent with a degree, but I think we need to get a new master class of master students. And this is something we’re trying to implement at Georgia Tech as well.
Dr. Reichert [00:29:34]:
That will be exactly in the domain that, oh, how do I start up my company and what do I need to know for a business management plan? And we had success stories of that. I know this can be graduates. Some graduates start a company right after their undergraduate education.
Katie Cash [00:29:54]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dr. Reichert [00:29:55]:
And we can get them ready for that. And you would be surprised at how many. I think building construction, or construction in general is a major with the most founders of any of the other majors that we have. Even if you look at business where people start a lot of startups, but in a large scale, the number, the sheer number of founders or owners of companies that we have in our ranks in our alumni is just not comparable to anything else.
Katie Cash [00:30:28]:
That’s really amazing. That’s really impressive. So as we wrap up today’s episode, let’s, let’s take a minute, let’s zoom out a little bit. I want to know what is getting you excited? Right? So you’ve, you’ve transplanted from Virginia Tech, now you’re back in Atlanta, you know, really optimistic about the coming year. What are you most excited about in terms of where we’re headed together as a design and construction industry?
Dr. Reichert [00:30:59]:
So I hinted to that already before. It’s the timeliness of the momentum that exists in the industry, that exists at Georgia Tech. And that’s just such a nice coincidence of things coming together for me, I think, of course, what do I see? As in five years we’ll have a bigger footprint, we are more present in the industry in competitiveness to our peers. And I mean competitive with numbers. Our graduates were always competitive, but we didn’t produce the numbers of undergraduate graduates. And I think it’s a shame that we have abandoned this for just the big research focus that we used to follow at Georgia Tech. And you can do undergraduate research, you can do translational research with undergraduates that immediately enters the industry. And I think that’s what we are, are trying to shoot for.
Dr. Reichert [00:31:56]:
And that gets me excited that Atlanta is just a hub for construction and I think for innovation now as well, because we can try things right at our doorstep, if not on campus. And that’s a very unique mix that you have such a high talent in such a vibrant city. I can actually think of any other construction program that could offer that. And so I’m very optimistic. And I think when the industry helps us and shows up for us, I can go to the provost office and say, hey, we need more positions, we need more students. You need to look at the different admission model I have not seen. So the danger is always that they say, yeah, they use construction as an entry point, as a backdoor to get into engineering. I have not seen this in 20 years happening.
Dr. Reichert [00:32:50]:
I see it much more in the other direction where engineers move over the construction because it’s about people, because it’s about. You can do literally anything, any major in construction. You can do medical, you can do business, you can do engineering, of course, in either field, mechanic. And so. And if you are a people’s person, if you are entrepreneurial, if you don’t want to sit behind a desk, shouldn’t say that. So this demeaning. But yes, it’s. It comes down to that.
Dr. Reichert [00:33:19]:
It is a very inspiring career and students see that, they discover that. And I think if the industry shows up for us, then we just have growth ahead of us.
Katie Cash [00:33:32]:
Yeah, I find that the people that are really attracted to the industry kind of catch the bug and they get inspired by everything that you just described, all the opportunities that construction presents because can be a very fulfilling, long career. Right. There’s no real threat of a dot com bubble bursting. Right. Or anything like that. Because it’s one of the oldest professions since the beginning of civilization and it’ll continue to be part of civilization as we move on.
Dr. Reichert [00:34:02]:
And you can change mid in career if you see, oh, I have been too much in the field. I want an office, I want to fix time, or I want to just help other people become a consultant. We have seen people moving, zigzagging across the industry until they find what they really are passionate. And then sometimes they change because passions change as well.
Katie Cash [00:34:26]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Reichert [00:34:27]:
Yeah.
Katie Cash [00:34:28]:
Well, Dr. Greger, thank you so much for joining me on the show. Thanks for sharing your vision for what is to come at Georgia Tech. It’s really clear that the institution remains committed to being that change maker, someone that’s driving innovation, pushing ways of how we redefine how industries will work. And and what a successful career might look like. So I just want to say thank you to you and I want to also say thank you to all of our listeners for staying till the end. I feel like I need to end this episode with a yellow jacket salute and just say to hell with Georgia, y’. All.
Katie Cash [00:35:05]:
And until next time, keep up with the Smart Marketing. Go jackets. AEC Marketing for Principals is presented by SmartEdge, the AEC Growth Consulting firm that has been developing smart business strategies for design and construction firms since 2008. The show is hosted by me, Katie Cash, Senior VP at Smartigees. I would love to hear from you. If you have a question, a guest request, or a topic request for a future episode, send an email or a voice memo to podcastmartigies.com and if you’re looking looking for past episodes, be sure to visit our podcast page@smarter g.com podcast. We hope you’ll tell your friends and colleagues about our show and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss out on future episodes. Thanks for listening.